Received Saturday, December 6, 2008. - Perspective & Opinion
Our nanny has been with us for 6 months, well past the trial period, and we've decided it's just not working out. She's nice enough, and the kids like her, but she's a little on the lazy side. She doesn't want to take any initiative, and I always feel like she's waiting for me to tell her what to do next. She barely picks up after my children, let alone herself. I'm tired of coming home after a long day to a messy house, and the last thing I want to do is pick up after all of them.
What would be the best way to let her go? Do I owe her severance, and if so, how much should I give her? And should I provide a reference, even though I feel like I'd be lying to the next Employer if I say she was wonderful? I would appreciate any advice!
58 comments:
Have you talked to her about the situation? You could sit her down and tell her your unhappy over the messy house and other things and give her some time to 'straighten up'
I would think a severance pay would be appropriate. You aren't firing her over something particularly bad (like abusing your child) so severance pay would be a nice gesture on your part.
I wouldn't bring up being a reference to her. If she does then you can tell her that you would have to be honest with someone, that you aren't going to lie for her.
You need to be careful though, there are laws concerning references. In my state you are only allowed to give out certain information on someone. You can tell a prospective employee how long they worked for you, how much they were payed, and if you would hire them in the future. If you tell anything more than that you could face legal trouble
Have you talked to the nanny before you considered firing her? Maybe she is completely unaware and will be taken by surprise. She may have come from a nanny situation where she felt like she was walking on egg shells so she does not want to do anything that may offend you.
As for picking up after herself, she should be doing that!!
Give her 2 weeks notice, but I don't see why she needs severance. Tell her after the holidays her services are no longer required - that is unless you have a contract, then yes you do owe her severance pay. You need to start looking for that replacement NOW. I don't think it is too much to ask for an employee to do what she was hired to do. I don't see how talking about the situation will help.
Act on your first instinct.
It is one thing to wait for permission to do anything involving your children. It is quite another not to pick up after the activities (and in the process your children are learning to pick up after themselves)... can't blame her for not sticking to the job outline if you did not tell her your expectations on the front side. Sounds like you need to chat with her.
OP is your nanny live in or live out?
What I would do is give her a two week notice (if, like the other posters suggested, you decide you can't talk to her and try to work it out) BUT make sure she has some non-weekend time to sit down for interviews with other families. If you decide you're going to fire her outright, then I would think severance would definitely be appropriate.
I would talk to her first. It is hard to find someone that is good with the kids and that the kids like these days. That is why she is there - to take care of the kids and do what you say. She is not their mom you are. Tell her that you want her to take the initiative...she probably just dosn't want to step on your toes.
Does she live with you or is only there certain times?
Thanks for the advice so far. My nanny is a live-out, and she works about 45-50 hrs a week. We pay her very well, which is why this laziness really bothers me. We do not give her much in the way of housekeeping duties. She's only responsible for picking up after herself and the kids when they eat or play. I have a housekeeper that comes in once a week for the heavy cleaning. And I've asked her more than once to "step it up", but I am trying my best not to be a bitch because who wants to work for a tyrant?
I've come home to a sinkful of dirty dishes from breakfast and lunch (she'll say she was too busy with the kids to get around to it) or a dining room table full of cut up paper, crayons, play-doh, etc.
Like I said, she's sweet and everything, but I'm just too damn tired when I get home to clean up their mess. I'd like the kids to learn some responsibility too, and I was hoping she would take the initiative to teach them to pick up after themselves because she is with them for so much of the day. I honestly think some people just have a lazy streak, and she's one of them!
Give a valid reference saying that you just need someone who takes more initiative in running the household.
Yes, severance pay would be appropriate. She's been showing up to work everyday and doing (her version) of the job, so since you are letting her go for your reasons, she deserves at least 3 weeks pay.
What yaya said. Also, I am more with those who say that her being good with the kids and them loving her should weigh much more heavily than whether she is keeping things tidy enough to suit you.
Two weeks severance. no notice. You do not want a fired nanny taking care of your children. That's a basic tenet of firing any employee, especially a childcare provider.
Three weeks severance seems excessive IMO. She has only worked for you for 6 months and you are firing her for cause. She has failed in living up to part of her job description, despite feedback on your part. Two weeks severance is plenty generous considering the situation. Of course caring for the children is more important objectively than cleaning up. However, they are both important parts of being a good nanny. Parents rely on a responsible nanny to mange the children and picking up after them. Having been a SAHM at some points in my life, I know that juggling both these things is not that difficult with a little organizational skills.
In terms of a reference, I would personally be honest with prospective employees regarding her strengths and weaknesses because I would want the same in return. You do take some personal risk by choosing to be forthcoming, but I think it is the right thing to do. Hopefully she will find a family with a full time housekeeper or one for who a messy home is not a big deal.
3 weeks severance?!! That's too much. I agree with two weeks. And letting her go immediately. I also think that if you're not asking much of her and she's failing to meet even those simple tasks, whose to say that she won't later on get lazy with the kids.. or even may be now? I hope your kids are old enough for you to ask them what they do all day.
This nanny is obviously not guiding these children properly. It doesn't sound like she has that much responsibility, except for the kids, and she can't clean up after them? I know if my nanny were making messes and leaving them for me, it would get really old after awhile.
Your expectations of her are perfectly reasonable. Cleaning up after herself and the children, and teaching the children to pickup after themselves are normal parts of a nanny's job description, even in a home with a full time housekeeper.
If you had let her go after the trial period, no problem. Since you let it go for six months, and it is right before the holidays, I do feel you should give her two weeks severance.
As for a reference, you can say she was good with the children, but not a good match for your family because you need someone to ------etc.
When you check references for your next nanny, ask them about these issues!
You should give two weeks severence and let her go next Friday. Try and line up a temporary in the meantime so you are not rushing to find your next nanny.
Well the only thing I can say is that this is one side of the story, and perceptions and realities are often not the same.
You may think she has the time to clean up after the kids (who are how old again?), but frankly the children probably like her because she spends all her time with them, and cleaning up all that paper mess just really takes up a lot of time.
Based on the items that you say are left out, it sounds like these are bigger than babies, and perhaps do not have a nap time or perhaps a short one.
The fact that these are not babies and haven't learned to clean up after themselves also means that you have not done your job as a parent, because this nanny did not get them from birth.
Additionally, the fact that you really needed someone who would take the initiative, means that you really did not do your homework before hiring this particular employee; there are clearly 2 types of nannies; those who take the initiative, and those that do not; these two kinds cannot be mistaken, so you made an error in allowing the trial period to pass before catching this crucial difference.
Nannies who take the initiative do not like to work for parents who plan out the day, and nannies who are not type A personalities do not like when directions are not left for them, after all, they are your children, you should have a plan.
Now, why the nanny is not cleaning up after herself is another issue, of course, I'd love to know exactly what she is not cleaning up- doesn't sound right to me.
I have to also say, that you sound like a lazy mom, one who wants to relinquish all her responsibilities and relegate them to the nanny.
You have children, they make a mess at times, learn to live with it.
Accept that you have a nanny that does not take the initiative and take that initiative yourself.
Exactly why are 'dishes' from breakfast and lunch in the sink?
Are these jsut the kids dishes or are yours included?
You should clean up your own mess.
And where is the dishwasher in all of this.
I realize a lot of parents like to leave their dishes in the sink, when a dishwasher is clearly a knee away.
You bet your bottom dollar they come home and see them right there, especially if it's a habit.
Not only do kids need to learn to clean up but parents do too.
I am a nanny that takes initiative, and would be quite irritated if my employer starts to tell me what to do.
I even hate the little hints' Oh, it's such a beautiful day out today'
News flash! I know, but I just ignore it, because really what is my response going to be. Some people are just plain irritating.
I did digress didn't I?
Well as for the severance, just put yourself in her shoes, what would you like your employer to do if you were not living up to her/his expectations? If you would like to be dismissed without severance then by all means do that, but if you'd like to be treated with compassion then I suggest you show compassion.
And what the heck does 'step it up' mean?
Can you have an adult conversation with your nanny, again, the same kind you'd like your boss to have with you before he canned you.
Tell her honestly (leave passive aggressiveness out of it) how you feel and what you'd like and then if she can't give you what you want after clearly defining all your wants, then part company amicably.
Ok, that's all for now.
Em
I love your "matter-of-fact" style, however, maybe these kids are young enough that it's that time to START teaching them some responsibility. We can't blame the parent here, especially when she has a nanny that she clearly states spends so much time with her kids. Part of this nanny's job was to instill some responsibility with the kids and she is not doing that.
Not a Park Slope:
That's interesting. My employer told me that I have a matter of fact style, well I guess I do.
I can't comment fully on whose shoulders the culpability rests until I know the age of the children. I assumed they were old enough based on the craft items that were used, and by deduction, if the nanny was only there for 6 months, chances are there was someone there before. I would bet that this is not this parent's first nanny.
My charges are not even 2 yet and they have been crawling up the stairs to bed ever since they could crawl, of course whether they like it or not, and they also have to clean up after themselves, and they are barely older than 1, Of course as little as they are, they really don't like/want to clean up, but as cute as they are, they have to. I have had many a meltdowns during this teaching process, but I'm a strong nanny, I do not back down and I encourage the parents to follow through on this.
The bottom line is that kids need to learn responsibility and it's never too early to start, and whether they like it or not. Kids/babies understand more than we give them credit for. They know that until they clean up their pile, they are not leaving the play area, and amidst tears or with resignation they comply.
This is the reason I do not like to nanny kids who have had a previous nanny. I like them from birth or very close to it, that way I know no bad habits are formed.
Sometimes also, these parents make the process hard for nannies, especially nannies who are not strong, sure she might want the nanny to teach the kids how to clean up, but is the parent following through on this, or are they enabling them on the weekends.
Anyway, the point too is that you can't buy a lime and expect a lemon, though they both have vitamin c and have tangy flavors there is s distinct difference in the tang that they produce and the taste they produce.
I will not take a nanny job with a parent who micromanages, or who works from home every day. I usually have one there at some point though, but I hope to nix that on my next job, though I must say that he/she tries not to get in my way. I will not work for a parent who gives me a schedule. I make my own schedules and keep my charges educated, stimulated, and well adjusted.
I still don't think this is a case of a lazy nanny. A lazy nanny does minimal activities with your children, they usually just watch them; this nanny is clearly busy with the kids, housekeeping is just not a priority, and she's probably wondering what a lazy parent you are that you have no activities for your own kids to do, my, must she have some stories about you.
Perhaps she's wondering where YOUR priorities are, in a clean house, or happy kids? and please will someone load the dishwasher!!!!!
When I was a nanny, the family were pigs themselves. They would leave things wherever they felt like it. They would take showers and just leave the towels on the floor. Cans of soda laying around, clothes hangers thrown about. Toothpaste from the kids all over the bathroom counter tops and in the sink. There kid was a little pisser always peeing in the bed. They would tell me Monday morning Zach wet the bed again and laugh. Lazy parents who knows how long there kid slept in urine over the weekend.
But when I was working there they always expected the house to be perfect. Things picked up, cleaned etc. It wasn't my job to pick up there crap but I did. When I would leave Friday the house was in good shape. Coming back Monday it was back to the same shit.
Thank goodness I left those motherf---- after six months.
Hi Em
No, unfortunately I don't eat breakfast, and I'm not there for lunch (neither is husband) so it is all theirs. I just grab a coffee and go. The kids are almost 2, 3 and 4 yo. And yes I do try my best to get them to pick up after themselves on the weekend, and they listen pretty well, but they are at the age where they need guidance and supervision and for someone to stay behind them a little. And the house is clean when she comes on Monday (Housekeeper comes on Sat).
Also, this is their 1st nanny. I was a sahm for as long as I could and worked out of a home office. It just got to where I needed to get out more, bigger work projects, etc. But I do thank you for your insight. P.S. I loaded the dishwasher.
Hi OP,
Aww, thanks for your response, and I must say you seem very nice.
I was clearly making a lot of assumptions, and I think it really is that I find it hard to believe that a nanny could be all that you said she was, well, color me floored.
You are absolutely right, the ages of your children clearly demand that an adult take charge of guiding them.
This nanny clearly is not organized, and the responsibilities are obviously overwhelming. Be careful of the values she's teaching your children.
I really do hope you find a better fit for your family; your children deserve better than that.
Even though I am still quite shocked about your nanny,ending it on a good note is better all around.
Accept my apologies and thank god you do load the dishwasher!
Be honest with her. Let her know that even though the kids love her you dont feel that she is doing her job. If you say that she may not use you as a reference. There isnt much to do to make it easier, firing someone is just hard.
Em,
I really liked oyur last post. I think oyu sound nice, but I htought you were initially being a bit harsh on OP. But then I have made wrong assumptions myself here a time ro two and had to apologize as well. You sound like a great sport.
I did cringe slightly to the idea of babies being forced to crawl up the stairs to bed in one of your posts. I'm not sure why. I guess I think that's a time for a little snuggling and tenderness before they are put into bed for the night...but that's just my opinion, and it does sound like your style is a little more matter of fact than mine too. The matter of fact side of me does agree that kids should be taught to clean up after themselves, but the more realistic side of me realizes that even well taught children (especially at such a young age) still need to be prompted at chore times.
OP, you sound pretty reasonable to me, so I suspect that the messes you speak of are more than just an occasional occurrence on a rare bad day, but rather a continuous pattern of laziness. I do agree that the children being well taken care of is the most important aspect of the nanny job...but I also believe that taking great care of the kids (which should be a given anyway) does not in any way excuse from performing other aspects of her job. It's not fore her to decide what agreed upon tasks she will and will not perform. She needs to either do the whole job or find a job she can do. What would nanny think if OP decided to randomly pay her different amounts each week based on how much she earned that week, or how much she had left in her purse after shopping, or just how much she felt like paying on any given day? I'm guessing that would not be acceptable to nanny. Neither is it acceptable to OP to pay a full wage for a partial job.
Let her go, give her some extra money (three weeks pay sounds excessive...especially after just six months, and being fired for cause), and don't let her stay with the kids after you have told her she is fired.
OP I would open up the lines of communication. As others have pointed out it's not that easy to find someone nice your kids will like.
IF you haven't already sat her down and in a very straightforward way said something to the effect of "Nanny X, we really like you but there are some issues we need to address if the arrangement is to work out. As I respect you as a professional, I will be candid with you and treat you as such. I understand that taking care of x number of kids can be stressful and tiresome, but I really need you to clean up after yourself and the children. How can we come to terms so that we both get what we want out of our relationship? Would it be good sit down together and work out a daily schedule, knowing of course, on occasion, schedules can be thrown off. Perhaps this would help you better manage the time spent with he children so everyone is happy? In the meantime I will speak to the kids and make it clear they must do their part. We are all a team and we need to work as such. BTW, we really appreciate the hard work you do and the kids really like you."
If that doesn't work or if you have tried that direct and professional approach already, two weeks severance with no notice is fine. I agree you don't want fired nanny looking after your kids. If you do fire her I would urge you to do it after the holidays. It's only three weeks to go and firing her now likely means she won't be able to interview until January anyway. You said she's nice and her kids like her so allow her to enjoy her Holidays please.
As for the reference. You can give an honest recommendation by stressing her strong points and leaving out the bad since they are not terrible. If asked why she is no longer employed you can always say something like it just wasn't a good fit for our family. Which is the truth.
Good luck OP!
Metronanny, I really disagree about the reference. No one, in any field, should give a falsely positive reference. Imagine if you were hiring this nanny to care for your children, wouldn't you want the former employer to be honest with you. I understand the legal risks you take when you give an honest reference, but I think we have all gotten so obsessed with the legality and completely forget the point of a reference. Please, employers, don't skimp or go pollyanna on the reference. From the perspective of an employer and former nanny, do everyone a favor and be honest. Don't be petty. Don't be mean. But do give the good and the bad. The propsective employer can use their judgment and decide what issues are important to them when hiring.
OP, you may not have the Super Robo Turbo Nanny of your dreams, but you have one you can trust and your kids like. Think carefully before trying to 'trade up.'
OP, I would wait until after the holidays. I would give her two weeks severance at least. I fail to see how caring for three children under 4 is incompatible with loading a diswasher. It could be that your nanny is under par in other respects. But, if in the absence of any other evidence, I would not give her a bad reference (but I would not offer her a glowing one either). You call it laziness, but this could also really
be a personality mismatch.
Unless I felt good about passing a nanny on to another family, I would simply stick to dates of employement if called for a reference. That says a lot right there without saying anything.
It's not fair to gloss over a nanny's shortcomings because kids are involved in this and its not good to have them pay the price for sub par nannies being passed around by loving and losing person after person in their lives.
I would not feel good about allowing somebody to introduce a potential longterm caregiver into the lives of their children unless I had some inclination that it might be a good and lasting situation for all.
OK, so I agree with all the people who said, sit down and talk with her. I also agree that you should be giving her severance, since as other posters said, you missed your opportunity after the trial period.
I do also agree with my two cents... she is taking care of THREE kids, 4 and under. Granted, she signed on for that, but honestly... some days its just impossable to pick up everything. I also agree with those that said, that you should be grateful she is so wonderful with your kids.
As for the reference. I wouldnt sugar coat it, but I would not just give the dates of employment. You could simply say that while she was WONDERFUL with your children, and kept the engaged, happy and learning, she also would put the housekeeping duties on the back burner more often than not.
I think that way you are telling the parents, that she is NOT the best housekeeper, but she is GREAT with your kids.
On a personal note:
I am not the best at housekeeping. I know that. I always TRY to do my best, but some days I just cant do it. I am sure that my past employers have said shes wonderful with my kids, but she sucks at keeping house.
Mom:
I appreciate your note.
I think I mostly just found the whole thing so incredulous that I figured there must be another more plausible side to the story, and really just wanted to call it like I saw it.
Well, I had to chuckle at the fact that my charges charging up the stairs made you cringe. LOL.
You should see them, little troopers they are.
They enjoy a well rounded program, and it includes lots of love, but also exercise and of course independence and a plethora of other things.
I will say, that they are quite toned, lol. I used to 'exercise' them when they were younger and now they do it all by themselves. One of them breezes down the steps so fast- he beats his own record frequently.
It is the greatest thing to do a job that you not only enjoy but excel at. To hear their little voices and see their little faces, to watch them learn and the tougher part to watch them master things that if given the chance they would have opted not to do is really just a great thing.
When I leave a family, I must know that I have done everything humanly possible to ensure that with my influence they become productive members of society.
Fortunately, my employers appreciate my personality and they know I have the children's best interest at heart- even when it means applying tough love.
Anyway, this is the reason I feel it for this employer who got this prize of a nanny- not fair to the kids at all.
It is worth reminding parents that when you have a great nanny, treasure them, because when they are gone you never know what you're gonna get, as my last employer said to me desperately 'Its a crap shoot out there' as I told her I'd be moving on.
This means not only somebody that your children like but someone that is going to teach them great values (mirroring your own)
It is safe to say mom, that if you ever had another child, I would not be your nanny, because I would marshall their little tushies up the stairs for nap time , yes, by the way it is for nap time, but they do have to crawl for the parents too for bedtime. They love it for the most part, but every now and then good judgment demands that I 'do an express' service as I refer to it, especially after just waking up, they relish that idea when they are slightly groggy.
I agree with sitting down and talking to her. If that's not possible, waiting until just after the holidays and giving her two weeks pay.
I also think that accentuating the positive about this nanny, whom the OP admits is nice and the kids like, is fine as far as a reference goes. If she were late all the time, a no show, neglectful or mean that is worth mentioning. But OP, you could possibly cost your nanny a new position simply because her housekeeping standards and personality are not compatible with yours. Isn't the main concern the well being of the children? I'm not saying you have to keep her in your employ, just that you should take care to make sure you are fair.
Happy holidays.
Ok, I've decided to wait until after the Holidays to let our nanny go. I don't want to be a grinch. I will also give her 2 weeks severance, but have decided that I will not be providing her with a reference. When I sit down with her to talk, I will be very honest about my feelings why.
I know having a nanny that gets along with your children is important, and should be foremost, but I can't help that I somehow feel I'm getting shortchanged. I really don't ask that much of her.
I didn't hire a nanny/housekeeper, so her duties were child-related only.
And Mom, you put it into words better than I could have about the situation. I pay my nanny very well, and I am getting a half-ass job from her. I'm sure she wouldn't appreciate my paying her based on what her performance was each day I came home. Thank you.
And to all the others, I really appreciated your time in helping me to figure out what would be the best (and in the end, kindest) way to let our nanny go.
Well Em, perhaps I read your post differently than it was meant. What I pictured was a couple of tots in diapers and blanket sleepers, just having learned to master crawling up the stairs...perhaps not yet completely stair safe...being forced to make a Hurculean effort to make it to their beds at night. (Wasn't somebody just today speaking about people making wild leaps with their assumptions about posts...hehehee?) If they are actually just young kids with a full mastery of walking up and down the stairs, I agree with you anyway.
Perhaps my caution of the stairs stems form my own, and my sister in laws experiences with our own toddlers on the stairs. We carefully taught our crawlers to crawl up the stairs and then to crawl backwards back down them...to prevent the possibility of accidents, as they were getting more and more curious and adventurous. After we proudly proclaimed them both "stair-worthy"...and managed a few incident free weeks at that...both kids tumbled down the stairs from top to bottom within two days of one another. back up went the babt gates immediately...just like Groundhog Day, I suppose.
i can't believe you are so ready to fire her for not picking up. maybe she doesn't realize how important it is to you.
i would say it's a pretty bad idea to let someone go at Christmastime. i personally would give her some money and a good reference.
just because she wasn't tidy doesn't mean she was lazy and doesn't mean she won't be good for the next person.
I am sure OP is paying this nanny on the books so the woman will be able to collect unemployment until she finds a new job in this tough economy. If she is unable to collect because both she and OP were breaking the law than none of us-including OP-should not be patting her on the back for so 'generously' waiting until after the holidays and giving 2 weeks severance.
I agree with "don't be an icarus." If your kids really love your nanny, and she does interesting projects with them all day (the ones that are not cleaned up when you get home), then I would not be too hasty to get rid of her. She is a gift, if this is the case. IF this is the case, then you should be glad she is doing so much with your kids.
I would talk with her and tell her that it's very hard for you to come home and -- instead of being able to play with, enjoy, and spend time with your kids -- you have to then clean up from their activities that they have done with her all day. Explain that this prevents you from being able to enjoy them, and that you are counting on her to get the place into somewhat decent condition before you get home. I don't think you can expect an absolutely perfectly tidy home with the ages that your kids are though. But of course your nanny definitely needs to do better.
Why not help her organize her day better. Why not tell her something like this: if the mess is pretty big, (and I'll bet it is very big every single day), tell her to have the children watch a tv program right before you are due home. During this tv time, the nanny can get any leftover dishes cleaned up, and can get the mess of the day's projects off the table, sweep up, etc. If you don't like my suggestion of watching a tv program (you could tivo sesame street, for example), find something else that suits you and your family.
I'm just saying you can really lay it out specifically for your nanny so that there is no good reason why she can't get it done (other than maybe when your kids are sick or something like that). If you specifically show her how she can make time for the serious cleaning that she needs to do, then I hope she will rise to the occasion.
It would be great if you can repost in a few weeks and let us know how things are going.
Fox, that's a great suggestion. I hope OP will try that.
We just had to spendf some time guiding my little guy to clean up the creative mess he made with his "artful art" project tonight. But I'd rather he make a creative mess than sit in front of the TV all day. (Not to knock your suggestion of nanny tidying while kids watch an educational TV show!)
Good point Legal Nanny. Can the employer get into trouble if she hasn't been declaring her for the past six months? I am sure she could.
Its like my old boss. They never wanted to declare me, etc. I had other big problems with that position. It was hell. Anyway, I went to the IRS for other things. I had to pay taxes on what I made from them. But the IRS wanted to know the name of my employer and the address and phone number. What positions they had etc. I was happy to share all I knew.
I don't think its nice to not give her a good reference. You can always be honest and let them know how good she is with the kids. But not a great housekeeper.
Most of the families I work for are slobs. But they are so sweet. And they don't care as long as their kids are being taken care of. Actually the mess bother me more than them. So even though they never ask when the kids are sleeping I straighten up. Fold clothes, etc.
I don't do it because I am forced. Is because I really like them and they are very generous $$$$
My very first nanny job was a nightmare. Because I was desperate for a job, I agreed to work off the books because that's what my employer wanted.
The employer turned out to be impossible! She would call me last minute cancel and have her mom or mother-in-law sit so she could save some money. She would add chores that were never part of the agreement; like cleaning the bathroom or the cat box (Yuck!) She would also offer me to her friends without extra compensation so they could run errands or join her socially. She also constantly come in more than an hour late with no notice. When I tried to talk with her, she would not budge so after eight months I quit. Being an ethical person, I thanked her for the opportunity to work with her children and provided one month's notice. She fired me on the spot. I called the IRS and reported her. I was able to work out a payment plan I could easily manage for the taxes I owed and she and her husband were audited.
Legal nanny brings up a very good point indeed.
OP, sounds like you have a good plan, but may want to re-think the no reference bit. I have three kids too and had a nanny work for me for a few months that didn't work out not because she wasn't sweet and good to the kids, but because she just was not organized enough to handle that many kids at once. Some people are just not good at multi-tasking, but that doesn't work in multi-child families. Maybe your recommendation is that she was not a good match for a hectic household with 3 active kids, but she is very loving and kind and would do wonderful with a childcare position where she can focus on one young child. My ex-nanny ended up working for a neighbor of mine with one young baby and she has been with them for years and has done very well. It is hard to find a nanny willing and ABLE to take on three kids under five, but there are nannies who enjoy multi-child families and do a beautiful job juggling it all. If you don't already, you may want to look into mixing in activities for the oldests (pre-school/gymtime) that allow her to give one on one time to the youngests when you do find your new nanny.
It sounds like your mind is made up, but I hope you re-think your decision to not give her a reference. I think your issues may stem more from personality fit than from poor caretaking on nanny's part.
You could give a written reference that talks about her love of doing arts and crafts with your kids, and other positives and also mention that there were issues with her ability to clean up after herself and the children.
It's entirely possible that some other employer would prefer your nanny's style!
Speaking of style, it might be good for you to consider what YOU want in a nanny. Given that any nanny you would hire would respectg your wishes WRT activities, discipline, etc.... Do you want someone who is "take charge", who makes plans for the kids each day and needs/wants minimal direction from you?
Or do you want a more "laid back" person, who looks to you for directions and info on how to manage her day with your children?
IOW, do you want to manage your nanny or do you want to micromanage your nanny?
Chick,
You make some excellent suggestions, and usually I totally agree with you...which I do again, except for the last statement.
I think people are being a bit hard on OP, and I hardly think wanting messes picked up constitutes micromanaging. If it were an occasional mess under an unususal circumstance and she was complaining about that, I would agree totally...but this sounds like a continual and frequent problem...and OP has already talked ot her about it and nanny seems to have blown her off. I think if I were this nanny and I valued my job, and the mom had already spoken to me to tell me she was disappointed in that I was not cleaning up after myelf (what professional should have to be told to clean up after herself in the first place?) and the children's activities, I would be darn sure to listen to her and not behave unacceptably after that. I think the problem could have been solved by nanny as simply as not allowing the children to go onto the next activity until everybody had pitched in and completely cleaned up the current one first. The last project of the day could be finished in time to allow for cleanup, or nanny might just quickly clean it herself as soon as mom arrives home if she ran behind that particular day. But she should never leave the mess for the mom after work when she has specifically asked her not to do that. It's not like she has to clean house otherwise, and OP says she is paid a competitive wage. Under the circumstances I would think OP could reasonabley expect a fully professional job. And, even though it was nice for somebody above to suggest she offer her nanny some time management suggestions, even that is not something an employer should expect to have to teach a PROFESSIONAL nanny.
Hi mom,
I see your point, and frankly, I agree with you that cleaning up is not something that should have to be spelled out.
I don't think I was very clear, thanks to this massive head cold I have. :-)
Parents are, in my experience, either more "take charge" or more "laid back", and parents need to determine what sort of nanny personality (tc/lb) will fit best into their household. A very TC mom will generally have issues with a very TC nanny, a very LB mom might love a TC nanny, etc. etc.
I was trying to suggest that OP may have thought she would be best served by a LB nanny, but that she might want to examine whether she could be happier with someone more on the TC end of the spectrum.
And I will stop babbling now. Mucinex, where arreeeee Yooooouuuuuuu?
Ahhh...Chick, I misunderstood you. That explains a LOT. I was reading your post about how she should carefully choose the next nanny based on her own personality style, and it made great sense...then I THOUGHT you were out of the blue accusing her of micromanaging, whereas, that comment was actually just a continuation of your original suggestion that she look realistically at her own "style" when choosing the next nanny, right?
PS Feel better soon!
I would much rather have a take charge nanny. I'm not into micro-managing anyone at home, I have enough of that stress at work. It's so much easier to have someone who knows what their doing and can plan the days activities for the kids (and not worrying about their employer having a leash around them, restricting them, or telling them what to do every day). Wouldn't most nannies prefer it that way?
I think my fault in this was hiring someone who should have had more experience, for what my family needed. I will be more careful next time. Would a 5 year minimum be appropriate? With at least 2 of those years with one family?
And yes, my nanny is legal.
Okay, so the kids love her. She does crafts and projects with them. They are obviously happy and healthy, or you'd have no dilemma.
It doesn't sound to me like she is a bad/lazy person- it sounds to me like she is maybe a bit disorganized or has trouble managing her time.
Some areas have adult learning classes which are not terribly expensive in this skill set. Since she is good with your kids and you are otherwise happy with her, you could make her taking one of those classes and improving in this area a condition of continued employment. Give her a list of what needs to be done each day- exactly when and how are up to her, but a clear guideline, and a probationary period.
Why should you make another stab at someone who you think isn't working out? Because anyone with kids knows how they ADORE consistency, and breaking in a new nanny, even the world's best, is going to be tough.
Just food for thought.
I don't think OP should invest anymore energy trying to make this nanny into a good fit for her family. She clearly isn't. It's been six months. There are plenty of good nannies out there who would not need special classes or repeated instructions to understand (as Mom said) that cleaning up after yourself is a basic part of ANY job. Especially now, with so many nannies losing jobs (I know of 3 personally in my dc's class and that's only 18 kids), OP should have her pick from fully qualified, professional nannies who can do the full job.
OP doesn't have to give an all good or all bad reference. But she should mention the good and bad aspects of the nanny's work performance, or she's doing a disservice to other families. This nanny is clearly disorganized, messy, and not responsive to employer feedback. She might be a wonderful, kind, fun nanny but as many nannies have pointed out on here many times - if she wants to be a professional nanny and paid as such, she should come with the full package.I don't understand why so many people think OP should settle just because this nanny is a nice person. I guess this is striking a personal chord for a lot of people, though. You can be the nicest person in the world, but if you can't fulfill the job requirements, it's time to find a new job. And further, I don't think this nanny's only fault is messiness/disorganization. She is also not improving her work performance when given direct employer feedback. That's a pretty big fault in my opinion and goes beyond being messy. I personally can think of perhaps one Mom who wouldn't mind a messy nanny, but everyone else I know expects to find the house in the condition they left it. The worst mistake you can make as an employer is keeping a mediocre nanny around too long because you are worried about the effects of change on your kids. In my experience, kids are pretty resilient and everyone will be much happier if you make the switch to someone good sooner than later. Sure it might take a couple of trials to find the right person, but there are PLENTY of highly qualified, nice, hard-working, organized nannies out there. Also, sure OP can recommend the nanny to a family with one child, but who's to say they won't decide to have another child in a year and end up with twins? I simply don't get why people want to make so many allowances and excuses for a nanny doing a less than stellar job when there are so many nannies out there perfectly capable of doing a great job.
Time to move on, very eloquently said!
OP--You asked a good question on what you should be looking for in your next nanny. This one just is not a good fit. It may have taken awhile to come to that conclusion, but accept it and do what you need to do to get someone who is. Re-read Chick's advice. Really think about your style and what style works for you and what is OK and what is not and then right your job description. Here is my personal experience for what it's worth. My first nanny experience was a disaster--I thought I needed a nanny with lots of experience and few attachments at home that could interfere with her job. I picked someone with good qualifications (15 years experience) and strong references and when she didn't live up to my expectations and grown children. I gave her too many "passes" assuming it had something to do with me and my inexperience managing a nanny before getting rid of her after a month. I hired a wonderful nanny who had never worked as a nanny before, but had extensive daycare experence and was recommended by my housekeeper of six years. Unfortunately, health/personal issues forced her into leaving four months into her employment. I will not get into the details because those are hers to share, but her giving notice was one of the most heart wrenching discussions I've ever had with anyone. She loved the children dearly after only six months on the job and she really expected to be with them until they were grown. She helped find my next nanny, the sister of a local nanny I thought very highly of (she actually interviewed her before even recommending her). This, now third nanny was very kind and sweet but it was too overwhelming for her to handle 3 kids (at that time, all under 5 as yours are). We parted after a few months and she moved onto a single child job where she continues to do well. The nanny I have had now for several years came to us with several years daycare experience, two years babysitting, and some work as a temporary nanny, but never a full-time permanent nanny. What I think really makes her work is that she has 3 kids of her own, slightly older than mine were, all school aged, but she lives juggling 3 kids and working and knows the challenges first hand. Yes, we have had to make accomodations and adjust schedules when issues come up with her kids, as happens with kids, but it is well worth it to have someone so capably taking care of mine. So, think carefully and prioritize what's important--I never would have hired my wonderful nanny when I first hired a nanny because I wanted someone mature with many years of nanny experience, but what we needed all along was someone who had demonstrated they could juggle multiple kids calmly, competently and lovingly. She does all that and more--finding time to organize the playroom, the kids clothes and finding activities I didn't even know existed in my community--things I never ask her to do, but she does because she just wants to be helpful and it makes it easier for her to keep the kids organized and happy. Best of luck finding someone and you are doing the right thing looking for not just a sufficient fit, but the best fit.
All of the last comments, starting at JustAMommy are excellent....thoughtful, helpful and well written. We have some really great contributers on this site!
PS Hello Jane and MPP. Long time no see. I hope all is well with both of you.
Chick,
I absolutely agree with you as I wrote that in one of my earlier responses.
There ARE 2 different types of nannies, and OP just made an error in the hiring process.
As a take charge nanny myself, I find it appalling that her nanny is like that, but that's the difference.
Nannies who are not take charge, find it off-putting that parents have not provided them with direction.
I also agree with other posters who say that she still deserves a good reference about where her strengths lie, because there are things she does really well.
Hey Em,
How about a reference like this:
"Nanny x is great with the kids and they really love her. They do a lot of art projects and other enriching projects. Strictly based on the childcare she provided, we were all pleased with her performance. It turns out she wasn't a fit for us because I often had to pick up after those projects, as well as do the dishes left from the day and clean up nanny's personal messes, despite my having asked her to do these things herself. I just don't have the energy for that at the end of the day. If you have a housekeeper, or don't find it a problem to clean after them at the end of the day, she does a great job with the kids."
Somebody who knows the law...would that kind of a reference get OP into legal trouble? Honestly, I don't know why the law ties people's hands in this area. A person should be allowed to give an honest (even if it is subjective) opinion of an employees work, based on their own experiences as the employer. What good is a reference anymore if the person is legally bound to say only positive things? My husband has been burned by this in hiring secretaries plenty of times. Of course, a secretary is much more easily replaced than a nanny...and the consequences of having a bad secretary are far less serious than having a bad person with your children....but Grrrrr! Somehow, after the fact, when the secretary has shown her true colors, or been fired, he is able to investigate with the former employers a little more thorougally and it is always the same story..."she stole," or "she never showed up for work," or "she is the devil." (heheheehe)
"Hi"
I am not sure about the law in other states but here in Ca. it is ilegal to give a "bad/poor" reference.
If you are contacted and are unable to give a positive reference,the law states that you can say " yes,nanny X,worked for me but at this time I am unable to provide a reference for nannyX."
I agree 100% that any employer should be abale to give an honest reference good or bad. The problem is there are so many vindictive & mentally screwed up people in our world that they had to put a law in place to protect those who quit a job(with valid reason such as lack of pay raises,respect or abuse in the work place) and fell victim to an angry boss left without an employee.
Mom,I suppose while your reference was very tasteful and honest,it would be in the eye of the beholder as to how a potential employer or the law would perceive it.
a sad woman,
That is truly sad.
Under the circumstances then, I myself would stick to dates of employment. I agree that it might be a bit more palatable to give a reference like the one I wrote above so that nanny has a chance to have her good qualities known. But, on the other hand, in this case nanny did cook her own goose in my opinion. This is not a case of differing styles IMO, as much as it is a nanny who flatly failed to do the job she was asked, despite having to be reminded. This, to me, becomes a character issue. Maybe nanny is not a "neat" person...but when asked specifically to do x, y and z on the job, nanny needed to either do them or resign her position, as she was unwilling or unable to perform her whole job. I was taught that when you have a job you do it...the whole thing...to the best of your ability....and anything less shows a lack of character. Nobody likes all aspects of any job...but you do the bad along with the good, or you don't deserve to have the job. Even a "not by nature neat" person can put away some cans of paint and load a dishwasher...even though she may not "feel like it."
So no, I would not foist an employee on somebody else who I thought was lazy, or had charachter flaws that prevented her from doing a great nanny job. (Really, even if they "don't mind so much"...who wants to have to clean up after another adult's messes at the end of a workday?) It's 100% unprofessional. I wouldn't want her as an employye for myself, and apparently by law I would be prevented from asking the person I was giving the reference to if they minded laziness or an incomplete job being done at their house...so, not knowing if that would be OK with her (and knowing that it is probably the rare person who would like that) I wouldn't take the chance of putting off onto somebody else what I was unwilling to endure myself. Again, kids don't need a bunch of transitions.
I would give dates of employment...period.
As somebody else said, a lot of people are out of work right now. Why not give that precious job to somebody who wants it badly enough to go the extra mile and do the entire job? This is a time when people with great character ought to reap the benefits of that. Doing the right thing is almost always harder, and typically with little short term recognition or reward. In fact, its often slower going for those who take the high road in this world. In rare circumstances, they get rewarded...and this economy is one of those rare opportunities for them.
i guess if the situation remains unresolvable after talking to her and seeing if she can put in more effort to what you ask, then you'd have to let her go. a small severance would always be a thoughful gesture. but you don't have to lie on a reference. if you did, i don't think the nanny would get the message of what you're trying to convey. she would just do the same thing somewhere else.
Post a Comment