When will men who take care of little kids stop being viewed as perverts? During college, I got a job at a local church to work Sundays. I worked with infants-toddlers, or with the pre-k kids, while their parents were in worship. I have been working there for over four years now. I graduated from college, and now work as a teacher at an elementary school during the week and at this church most Sundays. My job there has evolved as I work with an autistic elementary aged child during the first part, and usually the infants-toddlers the second half, but sometimes the pre-k kids.
Today, this other person I was working with, while in the infant-toddler room decided to combine rooms, as we only had a two year old and her older sister. We ended up getting two more boys, another 2 year old, and a 1 year old, plus the pre-k kids. I noticed the two year old girl needed to be changed, as her pull-up was really sagging. As there were no changing tables in the room we were in, I took the girl, and her sister to a room with a changing table to change her. No problem. I changed the one year old too, as the other lady very rarely changes diapers. About 30 minutes later, the two year old girl’s pull-up was pretty full again, with the stars on the front faded. Her parents were coming soon to pick her up, and I didn’t want them to complain that we didn’t change her. Again, I took her, and her sister to change her. I got a dirty look by the other person, like I was making it up that she was wet, when she really was. It isn’t too uncommon for a kid to go in their diaper, right after they were changed.
As a male I have to be really careful in everything I do. When I changed this girl, her sister was in the room, and the door to the room was open. Women don’t have to take all of those extra precautions, but I have to, to protect myself from any false accusations. I could have asked one of the women to do it, but I shouldn’t have to do that. Let us not forgot that women can be perverts too. Look at the women teachers who have relations with their male students. Keep an open mind, and get to know the person, both male and female, before making assumptions about them. There are plenty of great male and female caretakers out there, just as there are plenty bad male and female caretakers as well. Hopefully, we will soon live in a society free of stereotypes.
63 comments:
Very well said, OP! I think society should applaud men who want to care for children, rather than be instantly suspicious of them. How are we to teach our boys to be good fathers one day if we are giving them the message now that only women can be caregivers?
Are you the male poster who used to post here?
I don't remember your name but you had the cute little picture of the girl playing peekaboo or something as your profile pic.
Anyway I don't think there's anything wrong with a male taking care of kids.
I don't know any in my life that wanted to care for a kid until it was their own. If you believe in evolution it makes since. Our closest non-human relatives kill young that aren't fathered by them.
But I digress. I think we need to see more images of male caregivers in media. Think about the only stories we see of guys caring for kids are the stories of pervs or the guys that seem not so confident in their choice to be a caregiver.
Which brings me to my other point you have to be confident in your choices no matter what others think. Confidence is often contagious when you fully believe in you others start to as well.
Where I work we all have to have someone with us when we do changes or toileting.
The change table is in full view. If we have to go wipe a child we have to say what we're doing and who were going to toilet with and the doors are open
One place I worked we couldn't even assit with wiping we had to talk the child through it.
It's sad but it was for our protection as well as the child's.
My daughter had a male teacher for her first two years of preschool and he was amazing.
Go OP! Excellent post.
I probably would have given you a look too not because I thought you were a perve , but because I would have felt like you were leaving me to watch the majority of the kids while on diaper duty.
Taking the "easy job"
I had someone do that to me when I worked nursery. Not that diapers are fun but I ( apparently she) would rather change 20 of them than be alone with a few toddlers.
im sorry this will never change. keep doing what you are doing and keep yourself safe and be cautious. it is sad that you have to live like that but you do.
men and women are not created equal and most people dont think that men have the "instinct" to care for children. but instinct can be either a quality or a lack there of in either gender. a lot of people think that since i am female that i automatically enjoy watching children. really little kids make me nervous. i know how to take care of them but i prefer not to. my husband like kids and he is very good with them and kids love him.
im sorry this will never change and it makes me sad that it wont. as a race we've come very far in some areas and not nearly as far as we thought we did in reality
My responsibility is to the children first.
I am suspicious of everyone male or female.
If you don't like it too bad. You can run home and cry about it.
I'm not going to assume you're a wonderful person. Just because you say you are.
You can never be too careful.
If that upsets you maybe you shouldn't be caring for kids.
You assume the reason she was giving you a dirty look because you were male.
Maybe she was pissed you were leaving again with all those little kids in the room.
I'm sorry you can't rant about wanting people to not make assumptions about you and then assume this women was thinking negatively about you.
Had she thought you were a perve she wouldn't have let you change her.
So were they the only 2 kids you changed the entire time?
I probaly would have given you a dirty look too
And not because I thought you were a perve.
Also every center/nursery I have worked for has an open door diaper/toileting policy.
OP,
It does suck.
But as caregivers we ALL male and female should take precautions to protect ourselves from false charges.
We should all have our eyes out to protect the kids in our care.
I wish it was a perfect world and we didn't have too, bu we must.
I also want to say I somewhat know where you are coming from feeling as though you have to do etra to be accepted already being judged before someone knows you.
I'm not a male nanny, but I am a person of color. I spent a good portion of my life being judged by people just on the color of my skin.
It got to the point I drove myself crazy trying to change everyone's opinion on my own.
My poiint? don't let people rattle or shake you, don't get a chip on your shoulder.
Do the best you can and for those t hat matter it will be enough.
My issue with male givers is they always seem to want a prize for doing their job just because they are male.
This post just screams me! me! me!
Oh wait me! me! me! All about me!
All the time!
Hey guys look what I do aren't I so great. Hey look what I did! Those women are terrible and should me thanking me!
I have to do all this exra work Wah wah!
Me me me!
Are you sure the right person had their diaper changed?
Op,
I thought a lot like you when I first started out. Not so much male vs female,
but oh so positive and wanting everyone to be as open minded as I was.
Then I woke up. I took a job at a center that had a great rep in the community. Long story short one of the most trusted and beloved workers was abusing kids and had been for years.
The biggest pervs appear as the nicest people. The wolf in sheep's clothing if you will by the time you get to know them it's too late.
Should they hate on you because your a guy? No.
But to just have blind trust in anyone I can't go for that. Especially not where children are concerned.
Not fair, but that's how it is for the first generation of people who go against the tide.
The first female doctors, lawyers, soldiers, police officers etc had it rough when entering previously male dominated fields.
You and your fellow males don't get a short cut. You get to tough it out so maybe one day it will be easier for your son and grandson to follow in your foot steps and not have to deal with the stares.
Most child rapist/molestors are male. Infact a study showed that about 98% of child molestors/perverts/rapist are male. (i'm talking about the ones who take advantage of children under 10). Ofcourse there are rare cases of woman sexuaully assualting a 1year old but that is alot more rare. Which is why sterotypes exist.
Do i agree with it? NO. honestly iwould not hire a male stranger to care for my children. I don't think all males are perverts, most aren't, but as a mother i wouldn't feel comfortable with it. I no i'll probably get alot of hate for typing this but it's the truth and i no most parents are the same whether they admit it or not.
So i could see why you get ''looks''. I don't agree with it but its just the way the world is. I dont think it will ever change because i don't think perverts will ever disappear.
Sorry about the typing. Bare with me pleasee, i am on a cell typing fast.
Oh and OP, Woman teachers have relationships is completely different. Stil wrong but different and i'll explain why.
When you see the news talking about a highschool teacher having a relationship with a student (14y/o) these relationships usually happens overtime where the teacher has a bond with the student that starts out emotionally with flirting, laughing, etc then slowly turns sexual. Like a teachers pet gone wrong.
However with perverts and child molestors its a little different for the most part.. You can watch the news and here about a male 'caregiver' sexually assualting a 1 year old or child who have no say and really have no clue whats going on.
I have other example but you get the drift.
Also, false accusions can happen whether the doors open or shut. I think you're just paranoid and i'm not saying it's your fault. I'm sure alot of male caregivers are just as paranoid about what others think of them in these situations. Just like parents are a little weary when starting with a new nanny. They don't just trust them, they learn to trust them over time. Because of the stories you see in the news about nannies abusing there charge.
OP: You sound great and I think any child would be lucky and blessed to have you care for them.
In theory, what you would like to see happen should happen. But it won't. There is a double standard that exists in our society and unfortunately people assume that if a man works in childcare, he must be a pedophile. I know this isn't true, but I am only one person and my opinion won't change the world.
It's kinda like why we assume all male hairdressers and clothes designers are all gay. And why we never see women mechanics at the shop. Because in our society, many things are status quo and people are resistant to change.
And you are very right, there have been many women who molest young boys. In fact, one teacher at my son's school molested one of her students and was prosecuted and convicted. That made it very real to me and hit closer to home than I would have liked.
You might want to find another line of work. If you stay in childcare, you will only be looked at in a suspicious manner all the time and who needs the stress? Perhaps you could still work with children, yet on a different level. How about a sports coach? Or a teacher? Even a lifeguard would be cool. Something where the kids can talk and you won't have to change any diapers.
I also do childrens church , the 1 to 2 year old room. We are not allowed to change their diapers or pull ups . So if they the child has soiled or wet their diaper or pull up the parents are paged via thier childs number being flashed on a screen in the church.The parents then come up to the room where they are informed their child has a dirty or wet diaper or pull up. We also use this system to call the parents if their child is distressed or unsettled. This is to protect us if anything goes wrong. Maybe your church could adopt this policy.
Aires,
I have to strongly disagree with you. Women who have any sexual or romantic contact with their young male students (children!) ARE perverts and rapists. It is a double standard that disgusts me.
WHY did you need to leave the room just to have a changing table? Couldn't you just change the child on the floor in a corner of the room you were in?
While I applaud your attention to the soiled diaper situation, I think having to go to another room to change this child on a changing table is kind of a lousy excuse to leave the other caregiver and children. I would have been annoyed too.
Nannyof1
that's the exact same policy they have at the church I volunteer at and we have no males working on staff.
It's in place to protect the children
AND
The staff
You may not ever do anything to a child, but their are evil people that would.
There are also evil parents out there that would make a false accusation against a person, center or church for a chance at a few million or even to cover their own abuse.
Oh, I also wanted to comment about taking the older sister with you to change the diaper.
They are toddlers. Even if the older sister is 3 or 4 yrs old, she does not count as a 'witness' to verify your credibility! In fact, I am pretty sure the law would not recognize a child of any age to be a back-up to establish your honor.
I think you need to stop protesting so much about not being trusted because you are a male, and become MORE concious about demonstrating behaviors and actions to prevent what you do from being called into question.
Some of these comments are so ridiculous. People don't post on here to get ridiculed. They post for advice. If you're going to insult then keep it to yourself. OP, I think for the future just make sure you change diapers where another adult is present. If there's no changing table, find a spot on the floor. It's probably better than getting the nasty looks. I used to work at a child care center and we had a male assistant who was fantastic. He was not allowed to change diapers though. Even though it's unfair it made things easier on him and us. I think it's great that you enjoy working with kids. It does suck that you have to take extra precaution but that's the way our society is.
Two things:
1) Sadly, there IS. Stigma about men child care providers. It isn't right, or acceptable, or fair. I've seen a male nanny friend of mine get mistreated by parents and female nannies at the park for doing things all good nannies should do. IE, hugging a child after a scraped knee, walking his little girl charge to the restroom, even something as simple as helping to clean her face off after a snack. I think we all need to remember that the way we as care providers interact with ALL other people influences our charges on how they too should treat others.
2) In a church situation I always change the pull up or diaper in the same room as the other care givers. Whether there is a changing table or not. I feel it's important to have someone there as an alibi for the "just in case" factor. It's a different situation than working for one familly who gets to know and trust you and has your past work references. You know who and how you are as a child care provider but in that type of situation you have no idea how the parents really are. And goodness forbid something were to be said or hinted at or completely misinterpreted by the parents of one of your Sunday kids. . Its just best to have someone there for accountability sake.
1. No it is not fair that males are viewed with suspicion of being child abusers because they are male.
2. Taking her baby sister with you didn't help your case. She's a baby and no more a witness than a shoe. Did she also need a change? If not that was just plain dumb.
3. It would be great if we lived in a world free of abusers. Or if abusers always looked like Disney villains and we could spot them a mile away. Fact is this isn't the case. So we must be watchful.
We must watch our coworkers( male or female) We must watch out for ourselves so there's not even the smallest chance someone could accuse us of something we didn't do.
Honestly, I mistrust any caregiver who doesn't understand that the rules are there to protect both the children AND their own reputation.
The fact that you are a teacher and you work with children in your church and you still don't seem to understand why you should have changed those children in the room with the other caregiver chills me.
You are why I would never use a male caregiver.
For someone who "grew up in church" you'd think you would be less rude.
Minister's daughter I agree with you up until the male caregiver jab.
I'd feel the same about ANY caregiver male or female that didn't seem to understand those concepts.
If I were you I would talk to whomever is in charge about setting up a changing corner in the room. All you need is a changing pad on the floor, wipes and plastic bags. Then you can leave the room to wash your hands.
The one male teacher in my charges' preschool is the most popular teacher in the school. I wish more men were involved in working with young children. Many dads work long hours and can spend very little time with their children. Men and women have different ways of relating to children, and they need the influence of both.
Are all yall missing the part where the OP said he wasn't in his normal classroom? They brought the babies in with the preschoolers so he only took the babies out to be changed. Yeah, maybe he should have changed them on the floor for a bit of "insurance" but I'm sure the thought never crossed his mind, nor would it have crossed mine, because that's not what they normally do there. I'm assuming this guy is trustworthy or else the church wouldn't have hired him and obviously all the parents trust him because they leave their babies with him every week.
As for the coworker giving a dirty look, it is possible the OP imagined it or misinterpreted it. It doesn't matter because the content of his post remains the same. There is a stigma against male childcare providers and unfortunately there always will be. You people have proved that point.
Many posters hear agreed that male caregivers get a bad wrap and that's not fair.
But OP wants a freepass for all. I can't get behind that male or female we're working with kids you can't be to cautios or suspicious.
Also just because someone works for a church and the parents like them and leave their kids with them does not mean they are a good person.
Have you been around the last few years? Do you know about the Catholic Church abuse scandals?
I'm sure many of those parents trusted them?
So I read this over a few times.
Something seems very off with this post. From the second paragraph on there is a whole lot of wtf going on.
Had this been made by a female poster you would have been all over many things in this post. Talk about a double standard?
Brielle, are you speaking to me? I'm asking simply because I'm not sure and because I defended the OP. Had it been written by a woman, that would be null because there isn't any stigma against them. I don't think I would be "all over" anything, except I might have said something about how the coworker probably wasn't giving a dirty look...which I said in my post anyway.
Susannah, I'm simply giving him the benefit of the doubt. I don't understand why you decided to liken his post to the Catholic Church abuse scandals. That analogy could get really out of hand, for example a parent never hiring a nanny or sending their child to daycare because they could be an abuser like those priests. It makes about as much sense as what you said.
BTW, Susannah, I saw you asked previously if OP used to post here and I can tell you definitively that he did not. He is not the one we knew as "Jedd Meir" and I am willing to bet he will not be gracing us with his presence again any time soon.
Many men who want to molest children probably do it through church nursery's because people in churches are usually a lot kinder towards other people.
It is unfair that people have a misconception about religious people molesting children, and we can thank the Catholic priests for that. It is unfair, but think about it...when certain things happen to a certain group of people multiple times, people start to assume things. What I mean is that, since many Catholic priests molest children, now many people are assuming that they ALL do. Not fair, but that is where stereotypes originate.
I personally think if priests were allowed to have sex w/their girlfriends, etc. then we wouldn't have a problem w/them molesting children. They need an outlet for their desires. But hey...that is another thread. LOL.
Mannah,
This post just reminded me of him.
I was actually refereing to your post were you said you assume this guy is ok because the church hired him and parents leave their kids with him.
Perhaps my analogy of the Catholic Church was extreme, and I'm not saying that all Catholics or priests are child abusers. But how many of those families thought they were safe because they were in Church?
But my point was we can't assume that just because someone works in a church, or was hired by a church that they are good people.
I think to often we have this image in our mind about what an abuser looks and acts like. More often than not, they blend in with the crowd at least at first. Many times people think they are wonderful. Until it's too late.
Just to clarify I'm not saying OP is a bad person.
I just think it's a foolish especially when one works with children not to keep a watchful eye. People can and do fool you.
We also have to look out for ourselves.
Britney,
The lack of of having an adult significant other does not turn someone into a child molester.
Child molesters desire children.
It's not just men who flock to those positions. where people trust them .
Think of all those female teachers that abuse students.
It's been shown time and time again that predators seek out those roles, teachers, coaches etc
I agree with the OP in that mean do have a tougher time. I don't always think it's because people think they are abusers, but because it's not the norm, and people thanks to biology again tend to be suspicious of things that are not the norm.
If the number of male caregivers increases significantly attitudes might change
It is a vicious cycle. The number of male caregivers will not increase significantly because of the stigma and the stigma will not let up until the number start to increase more and people can let go of their fear.
Britney, saying that a priest is turning to child molestation because of their chastity vow is not only ignorant, but highly offensive to the Catholic religion. I hope you are being facetious here.
i spoke with my husband about this topic last night. he said that he would even be reluctant to leave a kid with a male caregiver. He is even a hands on father. When my son was an infant to 12 months he had his son by himself until he was kidnapped. He said that some men are just not able to care for kids.
In my opinion i see that gender equality will never be reached. We would have to literally re-write everything and change everyone's opinion. I think that some men strive to be equal. but most not all but most women do not want equality. Most of them think that women should be above men. that is not equal. one gender is still "better"
I am a Catholic and agree that priests need to be able to have sex. If their needs are suppressed long enough, then unfortunately they will go after innocent and vulnerable boys in their clergy. Men need an outlet and if it is denied, they will find a way to have their needs met. It's sad, but true.
Pedophiles go after and rape children Priests that are pedophiles would do that even if if they got the ok to be with women.
The normal priests who want to have sex do what has been done for ages. They leave the priesthood OR
they have a secret relationship with an ADULT
Honestly the ignorance that abounds here at times amazes me.
i agree with the posters that say it's an unfair predjudice but will not go away soon
i own a family catering company and it's funny - the more well known men who have a specialty talent/machinery make more money than the women, but for the general everyday work/presentations parents want women over men and i have to do some talking to present 2 of the best performers who are men
and they have to be twice as good
in my mothers day she had a saying - {the most highly paid cooks/chefs are men - but women do most of the cooking}
Miss Mannah if you watch the news you'll see alot of stories about ministers and priests molesting children, nannies beating children, stepdads raping children and people always say they would of never suspected it from these type of people. You cant just assume he is a good person just because he works with children.
Ministers daughter: i concur, your comment explained it all.
@Katie, you are dead wrong. The reason that many priests go after little boys and such is that they have no outlet for their sexual needs. NONE. They know that if they are caught with a woman, they can get in serious trouble. To them the chance that they will get caught with a child or slim to none (in their twisted minds, that is.) Children are easy targets. They are inexperienced and can be bribed...unlike a woman.
Duh.
"I object", I do watch the news and I watch it objectively. Therefore i understand that these sensationalized stories of physical and sexual abuse are few and far between. The good caregivers outweigh the bad ones. I said we should trust him because he is a childcare provider, assuming he has been background-checked and all that good stuff. If the parents and church officials trust him, why should we not? If we were to assume that every childcare provider was a predator or abuser, none of us would have jobs.
also too there are many many stories of people being 'charged' but less than half of those charged are actually convicted. in the US we are all guilty until proven innocent. A person gets arrested and their face is splashed all over the news, they lose their jobs and their life. There are some situations where the suspect is in fact innocent. But their life is still ruined anyway.
There are people who are on the registered sex offender list when they shouldn't be. One example is a co-worker of mine had a son convicted of rape. He was 18 years old. He 'raped' his girlfired who was 16. He was actually dating this girl in highschool for 3 years. When he turned 18 the girls parents decided they didn't want him dating their daughter so they called the cops and turned him in for statutory rape. According to the law he was convicted. He has to register as a sex offender the rest of his life. But he isn't a sex offender.
There are some instances in my state where men are charged with molestation and later they are found innocent because the child made up the story. We had a 9 year old girl fake a kidnapping. She even gave the cops descriptions of the guy but her story wasn't consistant and they figured out she made it up. There are a lot of cases like this but we don't want to listen, in this country we like to condemn people.
i personally feel that no one should have their face all over the news until after they were convicted of the crime. And even then sometimes they are still innocent. WE are a country of witch hunts and cops are very very good at not "noticing" evidence that goes against what they FEEL is the situation. Meaning if a cop thinks Joe Shmo killed a little girl they will persue that decision even if they find evidence that points the killing to someone else. That is how we get wrongly convicted inmates and it isn't fair that the law can ruin people's lives.
I hate cops. I hate the ones in Phoenix the most. They act like a gang out here. They are rude and crass and they shoot at everyone. The one cop in Mesa shot a mother in front of her kids in a Walgreens parking lot for no reason. Do you know what happened to him? He was let go from the PD> Um what? if I did that I'd go to jail for murder. People fail to realize that cops essentially work for the people. Our taxes pay their salary and they are the ones that put ideas out there that certain people are predators when they are not.
so whenever i see a male caregiver i do feel sympathy for him. as a nation we also have the mentality of kill the masses to save the few and we keep everyone in catagories. all men behave this way or that way.
So are men unable to care for children the same as a woman could? Or does society say that a man is inferior to a woman and no one wants to see the bigger picture. I honestly feel that people are fed information and it creates the extremist view points. Everything is black and white, all men are this one way, and all women are this way. We are a country of judge the book by the cover but at the same time we say that we only care about what's inside the book. People will never get over this type of situation and this is why as a human race we are at a stand still. Everyone thinking their views are more important that the other and not even trying to look at the other side.
There are some men who are predators as there are some women. In fact i was reading just today about a female 23 year old teacher and a 16 year old male student. The main difference is that in this case of the double standard it is "cool" that this boy got to sleep with his hot teacher. He became a god over night in the eyes of his peers. if that were a man everyone would have hung him up by his balls
Amber said...
"@Katie, you are dead wrong. The reason that many priests go after little boys and such is that they have no outlet for their sexual needs. NONE. They know that if they are caught with a woman, they can get in serious trouble. To them the chance that they will get caught with a child or slim to none (in their twisted minds, that is.) Children are easy targets. They are inexperienced and can be bribed...unlike a woman. Duh."
--------
Omg, the stupidity runs rampant on this board! To those that have said Priests (and others with no sexual outlet) only go after children because they're easy prey and think they can get away with it, that is NOT the reason why they molest children! These animals go after kids because they have something wrong with them and are ATTRACTED to children! Pedophilia is a sickness and those fuckers have NO desire for ADULTS.
I swear, sometimes I just want to scream after reading some of these posts.
BTW Amber, Katie is 100% correct!
Please do some research next time before commenting on a subject you know nothing about!
I am sure I am not going to win the popularity contest on ISYN, but I think it makes sense that Priests need sex just like any other man does. They need it more than woman do. I personally feel that they tend to prey on young boys because they know they can do things with them, then use their power in the church to keep everything hush hush. With a woman it would not be so easy since a woman (adult) is not so easy to intimidate.
I think it is sick that people prey on young children. I think I would kill anyone (male or female) that molested one of my children. Seriously....
priests do need sex. Catholics do have a twisted view but their view point is that in order for someone to be closer to "god" they need to take out ALL distractions. Sex is a very big distraction. The same goes for women as well as men.
It is dumb to do this because as a species the drive to reproduce is engraved in us all because we are required to keep the population going. It is a basic instint to have sex.
Priests, most of the time, are not celibate. I am sure many have sex with women on a regular basis. This is a law governing the church. Now there are men who can go through life without having sex and not having any urges. It depends on the person.
But to say that Priests abuse because they are horny is not correct. I believe that many of these preists are actually homosexual. In the catholic religion this is a sin. So they were taught that the more you pray, you can basically make yourself not be homosexual. I think that lots of men enter the clergy because they are in fact homosexual and they are looking for a cure.
As for abusing children. They are not any more likely to abuse than say the neighbor. And not all Priests behave this way. Very very select few actually. They like any other predator use their position of power to force kids into vulnerable situations, but they do that because they are predators and if they were regular men, married with kids, they would do the same thing. To say they abuse kids because they need a sexual outlet is not correct. They could easily be releived by going out and sleeping with a woman in another town when he's in civilian clothing. They abuse because they are abusers, no other reason. Their title and job has nothing to do with it
Hmm....a homosexual priest....interesting....
I think priests should be allowed to have sex. Sure, the Bible states that they should abstain, but in reality most men cannot abstain 100%. Plus, we have to remember...the Bible was written a LONG time ago. It also condemns homosexuality yet condones slavery. Times have evolved and we live in a different world than when Jesus was here. Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Bible....I am a Christian who loves my God. ♥ But to expect a person to take the Bible literally in every sense is not reality.
Remember those miners who were trapped in Chile?? Well along with food and drinks, they also had a doll given to them since along with the need to eat, they also had another need just as important. Sex. ↕
yes priests should have sex. you are very correct that the bible is not meant to be taken literally. that is a very good outlook that most do not share. I'm pleased you know that.
Two Cents...where does the Bible say that church leaders have to abstain from sex? The versions I've read do not say that. That is something the Catholics have made up. The only thing I remember about sex in the Bible is that sex is a gift God gave to married people. (Song of Solomon)
A little bit of factual history from a recovering Catholic: (an curent Catholics, please do not tell me how offended you are - if you read your church's history, you will discover many, many atrocities)
Nowhere in the Bible does God command that anyone abstain from sex completely; sex within a committed/married relationship is seen as a blessing. That the priests are required to abstain is a Catholic corporate thing - and the reason for its inception is more insidious than you can imagine. (the Catholic church has perverted many, many things in its quest for power)
In the early, early days of Christianity (before the Catholic church came to power) parishes were served by priests/pastors who were married and had families. (often because they had been Jewish rabbis who recognized that Jesus was the Messiah) Their churches were usually on their own land, owned by the family. If the priest/pastor died and his son chose to go into another profession, that parish essentially died and had to be relocated to another facility (and a different piece of land).
When the Catholic church was rising to power, one of its tenets was to avoid losing those churches and land through inheritance or being sold outright, so the new policy was enacted that all land and buildings would belong to the church, and the priest/pastor would own nothing. And to ensure there would be no arguments from possible heirs to those priests, the Catholic church banned priests from marrying.
(note, these early priests still often had SEX with their housekeepers or loose women in town, with the result of that sex producing illigitimate children, who were ostracized in society as bastards, and usually orphans to boot. What a lovely legacy!)
The church claims its priests (and nuns) are celibate because Jesus was celibate. It is to live and behave as holy and sin-free as Jesus. However, missing in that is the glaring fact that Jesus would not have married because he knew from birth that his entire mission in life was to DIE AS A SACRIFICE.
It would have been very heartless and irresponsible for him to leave dependants behind, in those days when it was absolutely REQUIRED that a women have the financial and cultural protection from a man. This is why while on the cross, Jesus tells his brother (James, I think?) to take care of his own widowed mother, Mary; so that she would not be destitute without Jesus, the eldest, to support her.
While the Bible does not say one must abstain from sex, it does encourage it.
It says it is best to abstain from relationships since it can interfere with your relationship to God.
I think we need to stop talking religion here Guys. Religion & Politics should be for other blogs.
I agree. No talking religion that is a really quick way to offend people. My husband was raised Catholic, I was raised...other things.
I do remember going to the church to ask to take the religion classes for marriage. I went to Catholic highschool so I knew the classes were going to be a piece of cake. Well the nun talking to us really started to piss me off for making snap judgments about my relationship. I told her exactly what form of raising I had. I was politely asked to never return to the church. I also got myself kicked out of my all girls catholic highschool. Ahhhh, the fun time, the fun times
Working mom, thanks for that tidbit of history. I, for one, found it fascinating, but all religious history fascinates me. My husband was also raised Catholic. (like you, he is "recovering") I was raised Pentecostal. (I recovered from that long ago!)
Nanny Jenn, the passage you are referring to was written by Paul, who was celibate and single. He said something to the effect of "You should never marry at all, but I know I can't stop you." The Bible doesn't encourage abstinence, only the apostle Paul did because (IMO) he was very self-righteous. Read his letters more closely, you'll see they are clearly the words of man, not God.
Phoenix, sucks that you had to take those classes! I told my husband there was absolutely no way we were going to get married in a Catholic church because I was not going to endure classes to get married. And we are absolutely not going to bring up our children in the Catholic faith either and he's ok with all that. I think my vehemence in my anti-Catholic statements scared him just a little. I know I would have gotten myself kicked out of class too because I argue too much. (Can you imagine?)
yeah we didn't have to take the marriage classes because I was black-listed from the church. I wasn't the right kind of person I guess. LOL
People are dumb
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