Saturday

2 Children Killed, Nanny Arrested

IN THE NEWS
2 Children Fatally Stabbed on Upper West Side - A mother returned home from work to her luxury Upper West Side apartment on Thursday to find two of her children, both under age 7, fatally stabbed in a bathtub by the family’s nanny, the authorities said. The nanny herself lay nearby, grasping a bloody knife, with an apparently self-inflicted slash to her own throat. The mother arrived at the apartment a block from Central Park at 57 West 75th Street around 5:30 p.m. with a third child, the authorities said, and confronted the horrific scene. “There were bloodcurdling screams from a woman and man’s screaming,” said Rima Starr, who lives down the hall from the victims’ second-floor apartment. Ms. Starr recognized the man’s voice as the building superintendent. She heard him yelling: “ ‘You slit her throat! You slit her throat!’ The mother’s was just bloodcurdling screams.”

The nanny, whose name was not released, was arrested as soon as the police arrived, according to law enforcement officials. She was taken to NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center, where she was in serious condition and not expected to live. The police and emergency service personnel shut down the block. Neighbors watched as the victims were removed and rushed to the hospital. Ms. Starr said she was interviewed by the police and told it was the nanny who had stabbed the children. Ms. Starr said that the children’s mother was in a state of shock. “She was screaming in a psychotic state,” she said. “She was not lucid.” She wailed that she would never see her child again, Ms. Starr said. “Just screaming and swaying,” she recalled. “Then she had a lucid moment and said, ‘I need a doctor.’ ” Ms. Starr could only imagine her pain. “She sat there for the longest time in the lobby as the police questioned her.” Ms. Starr said she did not know her neighbor well, but described a young, loving couple. The husband is a businessman, she said, and the wife is a doctor. They have a big, friendly greyhound named Babar, she said. She had seen the nanny in the building, she said, but never got the sense of anything being out of the ordinary. “I rode in the elevator with the nanny just the day before yesterday,” she said. “I was making small talk. She was sort of unfriendly, didn’t want to interact. But I didn’t notice anything strange or weird.”
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145 comments:

Doesthismonikermakemybuttlookbig said...

This is heart breaking on so many levels....prayers from our family to theirs.
Prayers to all my fellow nannies&mommies,whom I know have been touched by this!

nina said...

I can't even begin to imagine this mothers pain. My eyes teared up at just the thought of hearing her screams. This is absolutely heart wrenching.

anon poster said...

(re-post for Anonymous):
Probably another overworked, underpaid, stifled, exploited, trapped nanny who's kept putting up while the frustration builds up to the point where something just very little set her off. Although this sort of tragedy is sickening and appears to stem from wayyyy more than pay and work condition issues, it's a severe wake up call.

Parents should check with their nannies from time to time and ask if they are genuinely happy and satisfied with their work conditions, their life outside work and yes, their pay. It is sad how some parents foolishly expect nannies to have no life outside of that work environment, taking up all their time and for such meager compensation they hardly even feel like they parted with. It is unhealthy to turn people into soulless shells of themselves and expect it not to backfire. How should you view and treat the ones to which you are entrusting your most treasured possessions?

My heart is in deep pain for the Krims. Two children dead in one day, it's just too much. Too much. She didn't wake up Thursday morning expecting to be a bereaved mother of two. That's Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas etc without Lulu and Leo ever again. I feel terribly sad. It's too much. My heart bleeds for them. Could this have been prevented? How?

There definitely has to be more to this story than we even know right now. She took 2 children out of this world and attempted to take herself out as well. WHY?

I pray God's comfort to both their families in every way. And I pray for a kind, thoughtful and compassionate heart for every parent who uses the services of nannies, housekeepers etc.

NannyDori said...


What an awful story. My heart goes out to that poor family.

However I must add a reminder to the previous poster that no matter how horrible a job might be or how badly a nanny could be treated by the family they work for there is no way I ortrue hundreds of other nannies in the world would ever get to the point where hurting a child in anyway would even be considered.

nina said...

anon poster - what an extremely insensitive comment you made! in what world would it EVER be ok for an underpaid, overworked nanny to murder two little children in cold blood? it sounds as if you're making excuses for this monster. and for your information, the nanny was NEW, she'd only been on the job a very short time. the only explanation could be she was mentally ill and somehow the poor parents missed it when interviewing her. psychopaths generally come across as charming, friendly, etc.. leaving the victim completely off guard to wait awaits them.

Lyn said...

I don't even have words... I heard this last night on the fb group as soon as it was released. Just heart breaking. My heart and prayers go out to this mother and her surviving child.

Anonymous said...

This is so sad. I have to wonder what made this nanny snap badly enough that she would want to kill the children, then herself.

If she was depressed, it seems to me that she would just take her own life, but to kill the two children seems like a way to get back at the parents.

Did she feel trapped? Did she want to go home and couldn't?

I really wish she could survive at least long enough to answer why she did this.

Erica

Caring Mom All Day said...
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BrooklynMomma said...

I heard about this last night and still can't wrap my head around it. I too hope the nanny survives in order to provide some answers as to why.

My heart goes out to the children's family. This is so, so very sad :(

Erica said...

CM, you think this nanny was trying to get attention? She's in critical condition and the Drs do not expect her to survive. I think she was mentally ill.

MissDeeGoesToChicago said...

I am in a state of shock. Sure children can be frustrating, just like work environments. It happens, and it's part of life. Baby C (who I care for one weekend per month) can be frustrating; never in a lifetime would I hurt her. Jobs can be frustrating too; never would I get upset I would do something so violent.

I like what someone said about the fact that she was most likely frustrated about something which led up to more frustration, finally leading to a breaking point. Being a nanny or working with children in any capacity is an emotional job.

My thoughts and prayers are with the family....

Kel R said...

I have been a nanny to 4 families, 3 of which treated me like shit. There were days I wanted to run away. Days I wanted to pull my hair out. My last job, a nanny to twins from the time they were 6 weeks to 14 months, I worked 14-16 hour days for $5 an hour. The baby boy had colic and screamed for hours on end. Yet never, ever, did I EVER even feel the slightest bit temptation to hurt him. Neither baby. I have loved all of my charges deeply, and each time I quit my job I grieved for losing my relationship with my charges. I have loved all of them, and I took my responsibility seriously. It was my job to keep them safe. I don't care how bad this nanny was treated. There is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING to justify this.

♥ Amy Darling ♥ said...

I have been overworked, underpaid and under appreciated on multiple occasions by bad families. I have even been yelled at and used, etc.

However, not once did I EVER even contemplate hurting their child{ren} as an act of revenge.
Same thing w/difficult kids. No matter how a child behaved, I never entertained thoughts of hurting them.

What this nanny did is just plain unacceptable in my book.

I think she was mentally ill. Unfortunately, it is tough for parents to know whether a prospective nanny has mental issues until her true colors show.

I cannot even imagine the pain + heartache this family has to endure for the rest of their lives.
I hope and pray they get some peace and closure soon.

God bless them all. :(

Bethany said...

Oh my God! I had not heard of this till now. I can't wrap my mind around it.

That poor family.

Beezus said...

@Nina
This nanny was not new. She had been working for the Krims for 2 years. She was highly recommended by a friend of the Krim family.Her name and photo have now been released. A new and updated article has been posted on most major news sites.

AMom said...

This nanny was not new, she had been with them for a while. The family just a few months ago went on vacation to her home country of DR and met her family and posted about it on a blogg as to what a great time they had. To the person insinuating that this happened because the nanny was underpaid or unhappy in her job, are YOU nuts? I am sorry, that is just disgusting to try to put any of the blame on this to the parents.

I am sure there are people out there who are not happy in their jobs, they don't savagely murder small children! This woman obviously had severe mental issues, she is in a hospital now and is expected to die, which, IMO, would be the easy way out for her.

I cannot imagine what the parents are going through, I cannot imagine the mother walking into her apartment and finding two of her precious children savagely killed and the woman who she trusted with them for so long, lying near them apparently the murderer. how will these parents survive? how will the child who was with the mother grow up knowing her siblings were murdered and she by pure luck, survived? It's heart breaking and sickening!

Lyn said...

Gosh... I just read the updated articles (thanks for that Beezus)... I can't begin to fathom this... Can you imagine being the family who referred the nanny to another family? Knowing you trusted this woman in your home, with your kids and then turning on the news to hear and see what she had done? I just... I don't even have words. How horrible.

AMom said...

Here's the latest article from the NY Daily News:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/krims-treated-yoselyn-ortega-accused-killer-nanny-family-grandmother-article-1.1193015

Lyn said...

Youre right AMom. Death would be the easiest way out for this monster. I haven't been hurt this deeply by a news story since Andrea Yates.

Beezus said...

So many sad news stories involving children this week :(
The Jessica Ridgeway story from last week was so heart breaking already and now this.

I feel so bad for the Krims. There is a photo of the mother after the incident and she is in so much pain.You can tell she just doesn't understand why.It's just so awful.

I've had a few a bumpy nanny positions along the way and been paid much less than what I am worth, but I can't imagine doing something so vile.

*The only problem with the death penalty is that it is not used enough.*

Anonymous said...

Ugh. Repeat since I'm on I phone and forgot I can't post with my name.

This isn't an instance of nanny overwork. Clearly this woman was in a state of psychosis. This kind of thing just happened in my town, a woman murdered her children with a hatchet. She said a ghost told her to do it. She then slit her neck but did not die. The common theory with psychologists here is that she had a reaction to an antidepressant she was recently placed on, and it caused her to enter into a state of psychosis. Clearly this nanny was also in a state of psychosis, even those with mental illness do not commonly murder.

This is horrible, I hate to hear about the death of any child. It is the cruelest thing, to see an innocent life cut short

Future nurse

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Caring Mom All Day said...
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nycmom said...

Future Nurse,

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Almost certainly this nanny was both depressed and psychotic, as supported by the updates in the NYT of her recent decline in appearance and behavior. Almost certainly, like Andrea Yates, there will be no satisfying or logical explanation the Nanny can give if she awakens.

Another example of why the US needs better Mental Health coverage for the population at large, required parity in MH benefits for health insurers, and increased availability of MH clinics.

Given there is no way to go backwards and prevent this tragedy, the best we can do as a society is to try to prevent similar events in the future.

CM, I have seen many parasuicidal gestures and suicidal behaviors clearly without intent of death in my job. I do not believe this nanny falls in that category given the severity of her injuries and the method of her attempt. Last I read is that mom walked in to actually witness the nanny cutting her throat when she turned on the light, so I suspect the nanny simply lacked the time or ability to complete her fully intentional suicide attempt.

I will go out on a limb and say I am 100% sure the Nanny cutting her own throat to this degree was not a "manipulation tactic," but a result of mental illness combined with life stressors and lack of care. This does not absolve her of responsibility for her actions, but does have implications for best consequences should she survive.

nina said...

Beezus, thank you. I read an article shortly after the murders and it said that this nanny had only been there a very short time. I guess with all this going on the news people will get inaccurate reports. Thanks for clarifying for us!

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Tales from the (Nanny)Hood said...

This is a terrible tragedy, and I feel so horribly for the Krim family. I cannot imagine what they are going through, and I cannot imagine what happened to cause the nanny to commit these murders.

However, I think it's the height of arrogance for any of us to somehow declare that we know "There is no way this woman's job conditions caused her to kill." We have NO IDEA what this woman was experiencing in he4r life, and we have no idea what sort of mental issues she was dealing with. The extensive quotes about how wonderfully this nanny was treated come from the bereaved grandmother. Logically and objectively, that is not a credible source.

Let's perhaps focus on the Krim family, and if we need to try to diagnose the nanny, could we refrain from using declarative statements? The words, "I think...", "I believe..." and "It seems as if..." might come in handy here.

I wonder said...

I wonder if the nanny felt trapped? Did they buy her a car and indenture her labor to pay for it? where could she go if she quit? or was fired?

Caring Mom All Day said...
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shocking said...

I am not a psychologist. Its scary can someone just snap like that and kill people. I will be honest I never ever thought of doing that to anyone. After reading this article though it does put a fear in my head. Could I be a person that snaps and do something like this. Not sure if what I am feeling is normal. It is just scary they mentioned she was there for two years. The family visited her family in the D.R. and had a great time. I am an awesome childcare provider. Not to brag but I am. Reading this article scares me to think can anyone of us lose our minds and do something so bad.

Is it bad to worry about this????
Help I think I need a therapist.

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Kat said...

I can't help but wonder if the Nanny is innocent and this is possibly foul play perpetrated by someone else and made to look as if the Nanny did it.

shocking said...

Caring Mom

I never never had thoughts like hurting kids. When you see these stories it make you question like you said that "breaking point". It is scary to think they knew this caregiver for two years. Then again we don't know if things were happening behind the scenes. Also, Kat I was thinking the same. Could it have been an intruder. An the intruder put the knife in the hands of the nanny. Wasn't the nanny unconscious??

nycmom said...

shocking,

I am a psychiatrist and I primarily work in ER psychiatry, acute psych, and community based psych dealing with issues exactly like this. If I were still in NYC, it is very possible I would be the exact psychiatrist seeing this Nanny in the hospital. I will give a brief summary, but keep in mind that these are inherently generalizations and there are always exceptions.

People do not just "snap" and become psychotic or sociopaths/psychopaths (the commonly used terms for those who commit serious crimes with full awareness of their actions and consequences). You can become acutely psychotic, but it is generally in response to a severe stressor or substance use. As a general rule, a primary psychotic illness (such as Schizophrenia or sometimes Bipolar Disorder) begins in young adulthood and persists throughout life. It is also not uncommon for severe depression to be accompanied by significant psychosis to the point that you sometimes cannot initially know if a patient has primary psychosis or psychosis due to primary depression. And there are medications and medical illnesses that can have psychosis as a symptom.

There are observable signs, even to an untrained person, though we often ignore these because they sneak up on us. For example, some news reports on this Nanny have said in recent months she appeared "harried, gaunt, and older" and that this previously pleasant woman now "spoke little and avoided eye contact." Given that this nanny was 50-years-old and, assuming the parents felt she behaved fairly "normally" the past two years, it is more likely she was severely depressed with psychotic features (and/or acute substance use, though that alone is rarely sufficient to cause this kind of event). The hardest part with this kind of depression is that the changes happen gradually and it can be hard for friends and family to pick up on how severe they are until it is too late.

For individuals who are sociopathic (currently called Antisocial Personality Disorder), this is another long-standing disorder that begins in childhood or teens and persists throughout life. Again, there are evident signs and we have likely all met someone with this disorder, though of course, a very tiny % actually commit violent crimes. These are the kids (and then adults) who torture animals, lack empathy, care only for themselves, lie, steal, and lack remorse. This is not the person who would kill two kids, then kill themselves. This is the person who would carefully plan to murder the children in a way that did not implicate them. Or if they impulsively killed someone, would keep it together, leave the premises and begin planning an alibi.

Most of the murderers who have been in the news have had severe depression with psychotic features or Schizophrenia: Andrea Yates, the man who shot the AZ congresswoman, the Virginia Tech shooter all come to mind. Some have had ASPD such as: Casey Anthony and Susan Smith, the woman in the South who sent her car into the lake with her kids inside.

No one can predict the future, but you are highly unlikely to snap and kill someone out of the blue. The best thing you can do is be self-aware and if you feel yourself becoming depressed, go see a doctor. Do not wait. If friends and family express they are worried about you and you are not your normal self, listen to them. If you can't get an appointment, go to an Emergency Room (access to mental health care is often ridiculously hard and expensive). If for one moment you do have a thought of harming someone else or yourself, tell your doctor. It is not illegal or uncommon to have intrusive, scary thoughts. No one can prevent all these horrible events even with compliant patients and great doctors, but honesty and seeking help is the best approach you can take. And don't settle for any therapist or psychiatrist. One of the best predictors of successful treatment is a good therapeutic alliance between the patient and MD. Good Luck.

nycmom said...

Kat,

The last NYT update I read would argue against an intruder (but not rule it out completely), though we will see how the story emerges:

"Finally, she turned on the lights in the bathroom — and saw her two children in the bathtub. (Mr. Kelly said at the Thursday briefing that the nanny was unconscious on the floor. The police said they spoke with Ms. Krim later on and pieced together the more detailed account that he gave at the Friday briefing, when he said Ms. Krim witnessed the nanny stabbing herself when she turned on the bathroom light. The police said they found Ms. Ortega unconscious on the floor when they arrived minutes later.)"

Caring Mom All Day said...
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ericsmom said...

Thank you NYC Mom for explaining this to us. This story was so sad. I live closeby in NNJ. It hits close to home.
Alot of people suffer depression. Like you mentioned they wouldn't go out and kill someone. Guess everyone is waiting to see what happened. They mentioned that maybe she was on meds. Could she have been taking medication and ran out? Could a medication cause a bad reaction. Who knows hopefully they will get some answers soon

Caring Mom All Day said...
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AtlantaNanny said...

As a mother and a nanny my heart bleeds for the parents and family of those beautiful children. I find it shocking and discouraging. I spoke to the father of the three little ones I care for and he seemed incredulous as to how she could do this yet not be able to kill herself. I think a life taken does not bring a life back and a life in prison somehow possibly worse and more just. I also find it hard to understand, the number of comments on the conditions of employment,this is clearly a mental health issue albeit the job can be stressful and oftentimes underpaid.I can hardly bear thinking about the reality of what the children went through ,the fear,pain, it tears me apart,and I know when I go to work and look at my little charges of five months, two, and four years old I wont be able to keep from thinking about how Mrs Krimm won't have that chance. May all the prayers sooth her aching heart.

Chunky Photojournalist Barbie said...

The latest story I saw said that the nanny was not unconscious when the mother arrived, but instead did not begin stabbing herself in the neck until the mother walked in.

Caring Mom All Day said...
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anon reader said...

(re-post for Anonymous)

For those subtly making excuses of the nanny being underpaid...what exactly IS the going rate nowadays for a Nanny who murders two of your children?

She wasn't underpaid considering she obviously couldn't adequately care for the children.

In no way is this the parents fault for underpaying and over working. This woman obviously had other underlying issues to be able to kill a child let alone two. No excuses.

How horrible for these parents and the whole family my heart goes out to them!

anon #1 said...

(re-post for Anonymous)

Let me just say that there is absolutely no excuse for what this so call nanny did, no bad treatment from the family could cause her to kill these children so terrible, I would say this a lot of these people who say they are nannies are actually only interested in the pay check, not the children, I have heard nannies, complain about the kids are rude, the parents are lazy, they are always late, they ask them to do a lot of tasks. I have heard nannies say that child smells stink, I have no connection with that child, I have heard nannies say a lot of despicable things about kids, and I often wonder how did they get that job. Another thing some of these parents new trend are hiring a bilingual nanny whom would do everything, and guess what they hate you guys, they only agree to get a pay check, and they are in fact disgusted with you guys. How could you hire someone and you cannot understand what they are saying when they are speaking on their phone or to their friends etc. Parents you all need to wake up please.

Farrah said...

I hope this nanny survives and faces swift and severe punishment.

Letting her die in the electric chair is much too kind. It offers an easy way out for her and she will only suffer a few minutes before she is relieved.

Let her spend the rest of her life in prison. The next 30-35 years of her life should be as miserable as possible.
Let her spend 24 hours a day locked up in a tiny cell w/another child killer as a roommate. Feed her the worst food ever, i.e., liver w/onions, overcooked spinach, etc. and make her eat that for breakfast, lunch and dinner. No better yet, do not feed her dinner. Do not let her shower more than once every ten days and make her use the bathroom in front of everyone.

Caring Mom All Day said...
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hmmm said...

So, as a nanny, i read the news and totally believed this woman did it. And then friends pointed out that there has been no trial, no proof that this woman wasnt attacked along with the two kids.

So I've decided to wait to have an opinion. There might be some elements that we don't know about yet.

Is it beyond weird that I'm hoping this is a case of a madman on the loose and not one of a terribly sad betrayal of trust?

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Calanna said...

This is a horrific tragedy, but unfortunately things like this happen every single day around the world. To me, what makes it stand out is the fact that the mother herself stumbled upon the fresh slaughter scene. It is unspeakably difficult to lose one's child, but to discover it the way Marina Krim did makes it all the more grisly. I cannot begin to imagine how she and Kevin will go on with their lives from here, but they have to -- they still have a remaining daughter to raise.

Birminghamsitter said...

I read it yesterday in the morning before going to work... I am still in shock. No parent should go through this... only evil make others to do evil things. I just pray for the parents... it is too much to bear. :(

Caring Mom All Day said...
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canadiannanny said...

I can not imagine the pain this family must be in.

I don't think this will effect our jobs too much, but I do think that parents will look into a nanny more before hiring her as well as do as much background and reference checks as possible. Some parents may choose to to go with a daycare for the simple reason that more people will be around to make sure that nothing like this happens.

NY nanny said...

I know that nanny had been with the Krim family for 2 yrs but I wonder if this tragedy will stop those parents from leaving ads on CL that say: "I'm desperate for help, my nanny is sick today, can someone please show up in 2 hrs to care for my children?"

Lizzie Listener said...

This is a sad story.
It's really a tragedy.

However, we don't know what's really happened.
I have read several articles - there are discrepancies, and I don't know that anyone has spoken to the Nanny.

I hate to pass judgment on the nanny til we really know what happened.

Lyn said...

I have to say, I am always shocked when I go on interviews by the percentage of parents who don't ask to see proof of any of my certifications, or education. Oh course a good Nanny will hand them over anyway. But a good liar could easily get placed with a well to do family without ever having to show proof of who she really is. Sadly, there is no fool proof method to hiring a capable care giver, but you must use your common sense as a parent and not rely solely on first impressions.

Lyn said...

I also always recommend that parents use a third party company to run a background check on the potential Nanny. You shouldn't just trust that whatever paperwork i hand you is legitimate. I will be in your home, taking care of children, the most valuable thing in your lives. Don't try to save a few bucks by not running your own back ground check. First impressions are important, but they can also be misleading.

I am also a big advocate of a personality test. The Briggs Myers test is free, can be found easily on any search engine and many employers in the corporate world use it to get a better grasp on the type of person they are hiring before hiring them (I am an ENFJ, for instance).

Again, there is NO fool proof method to hiring a Nanny, but there are certainly things you can do as an employer to weed out a lot of the crazies out there. In my experience, parents are not nearly thorough enough during the hiring process.

Tales from the (Nanny)Hood said...

Although it seems to be popular to say the nanny in the Krim case "just snapped", we have to realize that that's probably not true. She was (according to news reports) apparently having issues of all sorts for about a month, and the possibility exists that either no one in her life spoke with her and intervened or she somehow hid her issues from everyone around her.

I do wonder how this tragedy will affect the ways people seek out caregivers of all types. Will parents hesitate before choosing a nanny off a website, or will they continue to assume a cheap "background check" solves all their worries? Will nanny placement agencies become even more thorough in their screenings, or will they change methods to include psychological testing or interviews with mental heath professionals?

The devastation of the loss the Krim family has experienced is not something I can easily describe. Their loss might have some meaning in the future if we as a society take hard looks at two topics:

How do we approach people we know or love who may be having mental health issues? How do we act to stop or prevent tragedies like this one?

How do we change our societal views of childcare from "Cheap is better when it comes to childcare." and "I just trust the caregiver - no real need to screen!" to "I want the best childcare I can afford." and "I want extensive screening done before I go back over those efforts and re-screen this person myself."

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Tales from the (Nanny)Hood said...

cmad, just to clarify, are you saying that the mom (and the dad, right?) should have noticed there was something going on and intervened? Because if that is what you mean, you're getting awfully close to blaming the parents for this tragedy.

I want to be sure that you're saying what you mean before I discuss this any further with you. I would hate to make assumptions about your words and react negatively.

I actually have another question for you. You said above, "I personally would not leave my child with a single provider outside of older siblings. Not enough checks and balances."

How do you balance the time you have spent working as a nanny with your quoted statement?

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Dr. Juris said...

I'm ENFJ too, Lyn. :) Also, it's NOT the mother's job to stay at home moreso than the father's (and it angers me to read that, anon). Why does the mother have more of a responsibility to ensure her child's safe care than a father? 50/50, in my opinion. And while it may be a parent's obligation to observe her caregiver's demeanor, that does NOT mean it can be easily discerned. I'm pretty sure NO ONE anticipates their nanny slitting their children's throats, CMAD.

RBTC said...

i have not been able to comment because the subject is too painful, i am reading all the comments to be able to understand

i will say the following- i feel that anyone reasonable and circumspect should be able and encouraged to contribute to this site even if a nanny or not or if they have employed a nanny or not

anyone can have reasonable insight into our world and the human condition and that is what makes this blog awesome at it's best

i am learning alot

The Toddler Whisperer said...

I am an ENFJ as well! I've read it's the least common personality type. The "natural teacher and caregiver". How fitting for a wonderful nanny! Or a wonderful attorney! ;)

I'm really disturbed by the comments (especially the ones that "imply" more than state *cough *cough "caring mother all day") that the parents are in some way in responsible for this massacre. That is absurd.

Anonymous said...

Such a great post! I just want to clarify (before moms and nannies run wild with this) just because a person has one of the listed mental illnesses, it is not reasonable to assume they will also enter a psychotic state like this nanny was clearly in. I don't want people to further perpetuate the stereotyping of mental illness! Most people with mental illnesses are functioning members of soceity, due to their medication usage and therapy :)
Future nurse

nina said...

Absolutely heartbreaking. I found these photos from a UK newspaper. With all of the reading I did here on this horrible tragedy in the US I never saw these pics. I think because of how intense they are, maybe they were censored here? Did anyone else see them? Its of mom Marina Krim screaming and the nanny Yoselyn Ortega on a stretcher:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4612818/Mum-Marina-Krim-finds-two-kids-murdered-by-nanny-in-bath.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

Anonymous said...

They think stopping meds cold turkey is what caused the mother here to murder her children with a hatchet. People don't realize that ALL psychotropic medications should be taken extremely seriously! They should only be taken under a dr supervision, following the drs orders TO THE TEE. Also keep your dr informed of your diet, alcohol/caffeine/nicotine/other drug intake, and any stress in your life, as all of these will impact the way your dr prescribes!!!!!!

Future nurse

Caring Mom All Day said...
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nina said...

That needed to be said, thanks for that future nurse. And I'm sorry CM, but to blame the parents for this is absolutely devastating to hear. How could a busy mom of 3 children be held accountable for any reason? Shes not a doctor. How could she possibly know this nanny would do something so horrible? She trusted her. Nobody in their right mind would assume something so tragic could happen. People get depressed all the time. Are we to think they could snap at any moment because they come to work for a couple of weeks looking slightly disheveled? Your statement, in my opinion, was completely unfair.

nina said...

CM, you posted at the same time I did and I read your comment but understand that with your reasons for Marina Krim not letting the nanny go, I assume the children cared very deeply for her. What mother would want to toss a nanny out just because she looked a bit stressed and depressed, when it may affect her children in the long run in missing their nanny? This is a very rare event. Maybe you don't mean to imply it isn't the mothers fault but thats exactly how you come across.

Lyn said...

Nina, that link.. I don't have words. That poor mother. The horror in her eyes. Heart breaking. Thanks for sharing that. I just cannot begin to imagine. If someone took my little girls life... I'd die. I would absolutely die.

Anonymous said...

It makes me sick that after a tragedy like this, the first thing people assume is the mother underpaid, or she didnt pay attention, or any other derivitive. This mother is a victim, and she deserved to be loved and respected right now. The woman just lost 2 of her beautiful children AND lost the caregiver whom we all know she probably loved with a least some part of her -- I know the nanny isn't dead but the nanny the mother knew is clearly dead, she never would have left her kids with a nanny capable of murder! I personally feel like the mom must have been a decent mother, I read reports that recently they spent a week in the Dominican Republic with the nannys family... The MB and DB must have loved her if they vacationed with the nannys family! So this poor mother is experiencing the worst thing I could ever imagine. My MB is so special to me, she is like a big sister. So just trying to be empathetic, I will try to put all of us into the Krim Situation. My MB has lost her 2 children, found them dead!!! And it was done by her nanny, who she treats as her "little sister". Goodness, I can't even imagine.

Secondly as a nanny, I can't imagine ever doing this. I know it won't effect my job in anyway, my MB and I have the most trusting relationship I've ever had in this career field. But in terms of advising those seeking a nanny... YOU CAN NEVER BE TOO CAREFUL. I agree with Lyn, check EVERYTHING your new nanny says. From background check to drivers license, to car insurance and college degree. I wouldn't rely solely on references either, because I have known girls who faked their references before. I'm a nanny cam fan (only for around 1 month or if as in this Krim case, she becomes abnormally different), and I feel like most good care givers will consent to one, because we have nothing to hide! I personally totally understand, because quite frankly if I keep you children it is a huge HONOR that you trust me enough to have your most important possessions.

And lastly... Have a relationship with your nanny. Like a real one. You should ADORE your nanny, because again these are your most precious belongings that she is caring for. It sounds so simple, but I have never had a real relationship before my current MB. We honestly enjoy talking with each other, and are involved in each others lives, without the children involved. We talk about things going on in our lives, and so we are both aware of potential problems. I believe with full certaintly that this MB (or me!) would be able to see this type of psychosis before it ended in this horrible situation.

Future nurse

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Lyn said...

Future Nurse, I wish there were "like" buttons under the comments!

Caring Mom All Day said...
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disgusted said...

CMAD, this is an all-time low!! Can you imagine the pain this poor mother is dealing with right now? NO! You CAN'T!! Now imagine if she sees your very public, very hateful, very mean-spirited words here-- how will she feel then? You ARE blaming her even though you claim that you're not. It's despicable and I hope you realize that and apologize and delete your horrible comments. You have NO right to add to her pain!

Dr. Juris said...

Who the hell CARES IF THE MOM WAS WORKING OR NOT? That's just another tactic to shift blame onto the mother, CMAD. I find it deplorable and depraved, quite frankly.

Aria said...

It's so scary that this happened. It's amazing how you think you can trust someone and then something like this happens. You never know these days...

RBTC said...

is it possible to not be personal and emotional about the posters?

can we go a few days or weeks without moderation?LOL?



moderation here we come ;(

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Calling all colors said...

Same old shit with this blog. Ghetto gang banging nannies. Let's coordinate our bomb attacks to ostracize the poster who's not "one of us". She wearing red in our neighborhood?! We gonna call her out- blah blah.

Cmad- free speech sister! You've said nothing wrong. It's ok to have questions and try to analyze. You're not blaming the mom. You're asking how in the world could she not see warning signs if nanny's own family were concerned? Good question. It's only a question. It's a fair question. People need to ask more questions and apply critical thinking. Its what intellectuals DO. * copying this post for you, due to the sure censorship that will silence my post. I've dared to defend you. They can't allow that.

♥ Amy Darling ♥ said...

@Caring Mom, I think you are just looking at things from a different perspective and while not everyone agrees with your views, you are certainly entitled to express them. That is what makes these blogs interesting and relevant. It would be so boring if everyone agreed on everything all the time. While I do not agree 100% with everything you wrote, I have to say you are speaking in a mature manner and are not resorting to mudslinging and name-calling which just diverts everyone off the topic at hand.

I agree with Lyn.
I have been on many interviews where parents meet me, talk to me for like ten minutes then hire me on the spot. They take me at face value and don't even know my last name. I guess they are just so desperate to go out and have fun that they think as long as there is a warm body in their home while the kid is asleep, they are fulfilling their parental duties. Thank God I am not a murderer, but I easily could have been. Stories such as this one make me shudder.

I also work for a lot of families where I come highly recommended by another family.
Usually these families do not check my references/certifications since they totally trust the family that referred me and I have no problem with that at all. Sadly, this nanny came recommended by another family which makes this story even the more so tragic. :(

Anyway, I believe this nanny should go to jail vs. put to death. Rehabilitation is not really an issue here because even if she is treated for mental illness, if she is convicted of these terrible crimes, most likely she will never see the light of day.

I agree that most people with mental illness do not go off and murder children. People need to throw these stigmas out the window. People with mental illness can be successfully treated these days.

This story will most certainly affect anyone who works as a nanny.
I think parents will be more vigilant in screening potential caregivers and those that have great nannies will most definitely appreciate them more.

My thoughts + prayers to the Grim family.
While I cannot even fathom how much pain you all are in, I will be thinking of you all every day in loving memory of your precious babies who were lost.

God Bless.

ericsmom said...



Actually the mother was a pediatrician. Instead of critizing this family lets pray for them. I feel so sorry for them. I am a mom and work part-time as a nanny. I would never ever do this. If the nanny was so stressed out and depressed it was her responsibility to quit her job. She probably wanted to leave but didn't have the financial means. Not sure if she was on the books. If so, I wonder why she didn't try to go on temporary disability?? I know NY State doesn't have the best disability plan. But there had to be alternatives for her. Even if she went back to the D.R. for a time being. There is no excuse for what she did. She could have left the situation. Instead she murdered two beautiful children.

Tales from the (Nanny)Hood said...

First, Caring Mom All Day, aka cmad, thank you for clarifying just exactly what your nanny experience consists of - 2 weeks work total. It does get hard to keep track of everyone's back story.

Second, I despise the tone you are taking when it comes to discussing how the mom (and if you choose to exonerate the dad, that's up to you) is in some way to blame for not having taken note of the nanny's condition and fired her. You have NO IDEA how the nanny was presenting to the mom, and unless you have personal experience with debilitating depression, you have no idea how easy it is to fool people you are close to into believing you're fine.

People who take some sort of pleasure in second guessing parents who have experienced a tragedy are always going to be around. I wonder though if you would be so quick to condemn this mother face-to-face?

The parents of the children who were killed will spend the rest of their lives blaming themselves for the deaths - I doubt Mr. and Mrs. Krim need any internet encouragement from you or others to take that weight onto their hearts and souls.

nycmom said...

Also, to add a personal note. I realized I actually knew the father man years ago in college. He was a genuinely nice, kind person. He was sweet, thoughtful and loving. On an issue I have in mind, he fought for his beliefs, but never compromised himself. We were not good enough friends to keep in touch (clearly since I recognized him by picture, not last name), but I had nothing but positive impressions of him.

I don't think any of that matters in terms of this ridiculous blame game, which is incredibly unhealthy and unfair. But it does provide *some* light on some of the issues raised above, namely what kind of people these parents were. I do not know the mother, but all reports indicate the same about her.

And, for the record, predicting these kinds of events is nearly impossible, even for a trained person. I suspect the mom did notice changes in the nanny, but that it never entered her mind that such a thing could occur. The absolute LAST thing that should be happening anywhere, by anyone, is blaming the parents who have just lost two children.

MaryPoppin'Pills said...

While I appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions, no matter how diverse they are and whether or not I agree with them... I want all to have their say here. But please do so in a respectful manner or yes, I will unfortunately have to resort to moderating again... something I really despise doing.

Thanks.

MaryPoppin'Pills said...

Calling all colors,
You are also allowed to say what you wish but the bottom line is this is my blog. And therefore, my rules.

Thank you.

anon 10 said...

(re-post for Anonymous)

It has not been proven that this nanny did it. The police have not even been able to question her because she is not in a condition where she can speak. It is amazing to me how everyone is making all of these assumptions based on newspaper and media articles that clearly reflect that the investigation is ongoing.

When I first read this horrifying tragedy, my first thought was not that the nanny did it, but an intruder.

Of course it is easy to point fingers at the nanny. I hope that we will find out who in fact did this, whether it was the nanny or someone else. In the meantime, this poor family. Beyond sad :(

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Lyn said...

MAD, NYCMom has spent more time dealing with situations and cases like this than any bored housewife gathering their information through repeat episodes of CSI Miami. I and everyone else who reads this blog puts serious stock in what she says because of her experience, education and overall demeanor.

BTW, you called me out first. I don't believe I said a word directly to you Sugar.

LDLam said...

Caring Mom, sorry for the ignorant question - did the news report anything about the nanny having a history of abusing animals? I haven't seen anything about that yet, but I haven't been following it that closely. If so, that's crazy!

Aria said...

I'm confused... there hasn't been anything about the nanny sexually abusing these children (to my knowledge). What's with all the discussion of animal abuse, sexual abuse and zoophilia?

The Toddler Whisperer said...

Why is this poster trying to one up someone who is obviously in the medical profession. It just makes her look - well....

Caring Mom All Day said...
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ericsmom said...

I heard the same Caring Mom. Most people that abuse animals go on to more gruesome crimes. Not saying this nanny did any of those things. I don't know her story. Just agreeing with what you mentioned.

I read the little girl had defensive wounds on her hands. She was trying to defend herself or maybe her little brother. I can't even imagine there last moments. Tragic

ericsmom said...

@their

ericsmom said...

Not funny!!! How can you joke about a topic like this??? Your a sick one

Stop the drama said...

My joke had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. The absurdity of the zoology post was just too much. Stop the drama.

Caring Mom All Day said...
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LDLam said...

Caring Mom, she had to have been very ill mentally.. That's the only explanation in any case I can imagine. No one who's not mentally ill would kill a child like that, that much is obvious. Of course, not all mentally ill people (and not even most of them) would do something like this.. this woman was SERIOUSLY ill. Something was very, very wrong. I wish there WAS a way to be able to tell if people were that severely mentally ill before you hired them, but there isn't always. I feel so bad for the children and the family (and the nanny's family, too! Imagine if your daughter was that ill and ended up hurting herself and children, and you didn't know. How heartbreaking.)

LDLam said...

I'm sorry guess, but despite all the arguing going on here, that mental image is hilarious.

Still laughing said...

A little girl (my neigjbor)l in a program I taught at was suffocated by her mom
After being given sleepeds. She had been released from the mental hospital just days before. It was a creepy thing to have happen. We gathered her things from her cubby that next day and collected her art samples.

Without healthcare, mental health services are not covered much at all, and this plays a main part in the decisions about how long a patient is able to stay in the mental ward for treatment. Getting patients lucid enough to release them is usually the motivator.

LDLam said...

Still laughing, that's so terrible. (That name doesn't quite fit that story, but I understand you're trying to stay consistent, lol). It's really messed up that things like that still happen in our society. It's a shame that money is still such a determinant in the quality of life Americans have. Not just the patient's - that little girl's life was stolen from her because someone didn't have the money to care for her mom.

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LDLam said...

I don't know if this makes me a bad person or not, but when I first heard this story one of my first thoughts was how this will affect the surviving child's life. Her parents will be SO protective of her, and they will be suffering from it for a long time. A lot of times families involved in things like this do not get back to "normal" for years or decades, if ever. I hope she grows up happy. She's so young that she will probably not remember but the effects will live on through her parents.

Caring Mom All Day said...
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LDLam said...

Lol, no, not Catholic. =) There are just so many people to feel bad for in this story. Not sure why she was my first thought, but she certainly is one of the many victims in this situation. I guess I can just imagine how much harder that would be on a child who has no other experiences in the world and whose parents will be affected by that forever. The parents at least know other things about the world, but that will be a major factor in the little girls' life for years to come, in the formative years of childhood.

no moniker said...

(re-post for Anonymous)


I love how the moderator deleted my post when all I said was it's not fair that one of the anonymous posters shouldn't ignorantly state all nannies now need to be scrutinized. I would never stab anyone, no matter how cheap some parents are.

*if you pick a moniker you won't get deleted! read the rules!

Caring Mom All Day said...
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LDLam said...

Very true, Caring Mom, about them needing each other's support and love right now and in the future. It seems like so many families fall apart when things get really hard. (and their situation is so much harder than many of us face.) I really hope they end up being okay.

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nycmom said...

Lyn,

Thanks for the kind words.

Caring Mom,

I honestly do not understand the thought processes you had that lead you to feel you needed to prove to me that abusing animals is a risk factor for violence. In fact, in my earlier post I *specifically* identified this as a common behavior among those with ASPD and their increased risk of calculated violence.

What I said was, "predicting these kinds of events is nearly impossible, even for a trained person." You somehow interpreted that statement to mean I was saying that if someone were killing animals it would not be a known risk factor for future violence, despite my earlier acknowledgement and raising of this issue. I still have no idea how you made that connection, but so be it.

However, the fact remains that predicting murder or murder-suicide is very difficult in a person with no disclosed history of violence. Even with a history of violence, we are far from perfect in our ability to predict future violence even with a trained interviewer using a validated instrument. This all assumes a forthcoming and reliable patient, something often lacking in this population.

Regardless, I have no idea why you are focusing on animal abuse as a predictor of future violence in a case that, to our knowledge, does not involve this; and in response to me when I had already raised and identified this issue in a general post about ASPD. You seem to be arguing with no one about well-studied issues for no clear reason.

Finally, you then seem to contradict your prior statement/argument with no one and acknowledge we cannot predict these events with any reliablity: "And although we may never be able to predict such tragedy, we CAN look for red flags of mental decline of those who work with our children."

The problem with statements like these, intentional or not, is that they DO imply that some parents (and, since this entire thread relates to these poor parents, by extension these parents) were willfully NOT interested in any such signs in the nanny. I think these parents will have enough personal guilt and doubt to last a lifetime and victim blaming, however indirect, is a very unkind slippery slope.

On a simply intellectual level, it is frustrating to read posts that are truisms, presented as profound and unique thoughts. Yes, we should all be aware of signs of declining mental and physical health in those with whom we have a close personal or working relationship. Would anyone dispute this? Did anyone argue we should NOT do this? Again, you seem to be arguing with no one simply to continue to ensure you are the prime voice on this thread.

If you wish to be the prominent voice on this thread, you may, by all means do so. By my rough count you have made 34/121 (or over 28%) of the comments! You have already made it clear you are a person to be heard and can continue to reply and faux-argue as much as you would like. Obviously, being the center of attention here is important to you so, barring direct questions or issues with other posters, I will step back and refrain from stealing your thunder. Good Luck.

Dr. Juris said...

I love you, nycmom. :-)

ericsmom said...

NYC Mom

What is ASPD?

ericsmom said...

Also just because a person suffers with mental illness, doesn't mean they will kill someone. Maybe NYC Mom knows the estimate. Do you know how many people suffer with mental illness in the U.S.

On a personal note can I ask one more thing. Kids on the Spectrum are they at a higher risk of mental illness or depression. If the mom suffers from depression does the risk go up higher??

sorry I hope you don't mind me asking!!

Theresa said...

NYCMOM,

Thank you for being the voice of reason. I truly enjoy reading your posts as they are well thought out, presented factually and right on the money. I also enjoyed reading your most recent post as I think the blaming of the parents in any direct/indirect way in this case is asinine. Thank you for your words.

Anonymous said...

I pulled the facts for dcum today. 1 in 4 so roughl 57.7 million according to the national institute for mental health, a government run website

Future nurse

ericsmom said...

Wow!! Thats alot of people. I think its worse now because of the world we live in. I mean the economy, struggling to make ends meet. Also, the fear of kidnappers. There has been alot of lurings in my area this past month.

nycmom said...

Thanks to everyone for the supportive comments!

Ericsmom,

Of course I don't mind you asking. I do not claim expertise in all areas, however!

ASPD = Antisocial Personality Disorder. It is the currently correct diagnosis in the DSM-IV for what we commonly call being a sociopath or psychopath.

Prevalence varies by country, but 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 people are commonly cited numbers for current prevalence of any mental illness. But lifetime prevalence rates are almost 50%. This is considered one of the best studies on all mental illness:

http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=208678

I am not a Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist, though have worked with this population a fair amount, so cannot claim to have as strong a grasp of the literature here. My understanding is that it has historically been extremely difficult to study psychiatric comorbidities in those with Autism/ASD. Overall, there is a higher rate of other psychiatric illnesses. Most studies have found higher rates of anxiety disorders and ADHD. Some studies have found higher rates of depression, particularly depressive symptoms not meeting criteria for Major Depressive Disorder. I believe there is also some belief that people with ASD and a higher IQ are at higher risk of mood disorders. All these areas need more investigation.

One of the oft cited studies here:
http://www.bu.edu/autism/files/2010/03/2006-Leyfer-et-al-comorbid-disorders1.pdf

Regarding, maternal depression and rates of mental illness in their children with ASD -- that's a tough one and really not well studied! In general, we know that depression has a genetic component and that a depressed mom = higher rates of psychiatric disorders in their children (which improves as mom improves). I see no reason why this would not apply to kids with ASD also. The limited data I could find supports this.

ericsmom said...

Thanks NYC MOM
I am going to research the information you provided. Its great having a doctor on this site : )

ericsmom said...

Well thats if we don't lose electricity in Bergen County tomorrow!!

Caring Mom All Day said...
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MissMannah said...

I also want to say thank you to Nycmom, your posts are one of the reasons I keep coming back here.

"people with...a higher IQ are at higher risk of mood disorders"

I am going to cherry-pick this little piece of information because I like it.

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MissMannah said...

I just liked it because it makes me sound smarter than I really am. I have no idea what my IQ is, but now I'm saying it is high thanks to my mood disorder.

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Lizzie Listener said...

I think it's sad that anyone wants to blame anyone for this tragedy without knowing all the facts.

Also, the whole point of this site is to protect children, and support parents, so I fail to see where SOME comments fulfill that purpose.

I would hope that people would THINK before they POST, and think about how their words can be received. Just because you have the power of your keyboard, doesn't mean you should wield it...

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Momoftwo said...

NYCMom, just read your previous comments. You are amazing. Obviously you are wonderful at what you do! Thanks for sharing your expertise with the rest of us!

MaryPoppin'Pills said...

All of you are just feeding off each other... some readers not involved in this little feud are writing in upset about what is it doing to the blog.

Please stop.

Caring Mom All Day said...
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Tales from the (Nanny)Hood said...

I have some links I thought I'd share that address some of the issues raised in our discussion about this tragedy.

http://www.empowher.com/wellness/content/nanny-murders-two-children-mother-faces-blame-editorial?page=0,3

http://www.modernizingmarypoppins.com/apps/blog/show/19626231-still-stronger-than-the-shooting-the-shaking-the-stabbing

http://torontonannyblog.com/2012/10/29/standing-the-storm-nanny-support/

Caring Mom All Day said...
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STOP ALREADY said...

We get it CMAD - you love drama and you love playing victim. Please take your own advice about acting like an adult. This forum is going dangerously downhill, and I don't think it is fair that MPP keeps having to ask people to remain civil. I'm sure she has more important things to do, and things she'd rather spend her time on, than moderating everyone. So yes, please, let's all act like adults and stick to the topic on hand. ENOUGH ALREADY.

Lyn said...

Dude, this was two days ago. Obviously you've had time to comment judging by the "post a minute" record you are trying to set.
I have done nothing to you. I have not "called you out" and GASP! Perhaps. Did not mention your name because I was not solely speaking to you. The only reason you have waited 2 days to respond to thi particular comment is because MPP cut out your latest round of crazy and you are bored. For someone who spends "all day" taking care of your family you seem to have a lot of free time.
Call me out by name and I will respond. That's why mpp left my response. If you don't like how she runs her blog then you can leave. I echo mpp in saying that. Don't like my comments? Then don't read them. It's very easy to tell when they are mine. They are under my name and use my picture. But please stop acting like a 12 year old who has nothing better to do than pick fights on the internet. It's disrespectful of mpp's time and it's disrespectful of all the other readers who want the drama to stop. This blog does SO much good. Why try and distract from that? You said it yourself, you have better things to do with your time. As do I. So please consider the damage you are doing to an amazing blog before you try and stir up 2 day old stuff. I certainly don't have the energy to deal with your virtual hissy fits. Hence my lack of involvement.
Go get some fresh air, relax, take a bubble bath, listen to soft music, light a yankee candle (I have several I can recommend). Try putting a smile on your face. Even if you don't feel like smiling. It's been proven to improve ones mood and attitude. Then come back, and be a pleasant and helpful contributer to the isyn cause. If something bugs you in the moment, that's fine, talk about it, get it off your chest. But do so in the moment rather than going back to something that is days old. You are better than that Honey.

All the best.

MaryPoppin'Pills said...

Now that everyone has had their say, this thread will be closed.