Friday

Friday, February 27, 2009

'Supernanny' Dad Under Investigation For Abuse - Video
Authorities are investigating a possible child abuse case involving a family featured on the reality television show "Supernanny," the Volusia County Sheriff's Office said.

Deputies and the state Department of Children & Families were alerted to the family by a concerned citizen about a week after the Feb. 13 episode aired. The segment featured the Davis family of Deltona, Florida.

In the show, Phil Davis, the father, is seen repeatedly cursing at the family's five children, ages 2 to 14. DCF said they are concerned about two instances in which he is shown slapping a young child in the face. It's unclear if the complaint it based solely on what was shown on the TV program.

"It's all blown out of proportion," Phil Davis Sr. said. "Those kids love him to death and he loves them to death."

The Volusia County Sheriff's Office sent a deputy to the family's home last week and spoke with one of the children, who said she didn't think her stepfather was abusing them, according to an incident report. (continued)

After seeing the Video, do you think this was Abuse?

67 comments:

ohwhynot said...

There is no way in hell I'm going to watch that video. I can't stand to see a child get screamed at or put down or slapped across teh face. It makes me sick. The comments to that story make me sick, too - slapping a child ACROSS THE FACE is not abuse? Ugh, it's so sad that a parent slapping a child across the face is so normalized that people don't recognize it for the abuse it is.

the original gimmeabreak said...

OOh! I saw that episode! I thought that guy was way out of line! he was constantly cursing at and swatting at his kids. it was terrible!

bella said...

I actually screamed out loud when the dad smacked his child so hard that she fell back on the floor! I was never so mad at watching anything in my life. I really hope he gets charged, especially since they seem unapologetic about it.

hmmm said...

Let me just say something first. I do NOT condone the use of a belt or any other thing other than your hand to spank a child. Second, slapping a child's face should not, in any way, be allowed.

That being said, all the children raised by parents from the '60s or 50s and before have grown up spanked and hit in one way or another. My mother spanked me, pulled my ears; my friend's parents did too, and so on... Sometimes people do overreact to these things. I mean come on, there is seriously nothing wrong with a parent smacking a child's hand or spanking their bottom if they do not reason with words. I never felt abused or resented my mother for it, but grew to respect her and know her limits. And we have always been best friends and impossibly close. She's always been a good loving person and a fantastic mother (the greatest mom in the world to me). So yeah, people take spanking way too seriously.

That being said, what I saw on this video completely crossed those boundaries and IS considered abuse. It is more emotional abuse than physical. And it doesn't seem like it is completely justified most of the times. I do not agree with this kind of violence towards such small kids.

Allison said...

I also saw this episode and had a hard time watching it. What bothered me most was his attitude about what he was doing! He felt no remorse or guilt about his behavior at all.
I felt so bad for the girls/women in the family. Did anyone else notice the son hardly appeared in the show (basically the rage was all aimed at the girls)?

group home worker said...

I have to say I did watch that show that night and thought it was child abuse and was surprised they aired it.

what said...

"I mean come on, there is seriously nothing wrong with a parent smacking a child's hand or spanking their bottom if they do not reason with words."

Uhh, yes, there is.

etereia said...

Slapping a kid across the face is horrible, especially with enough force to throw him/her to the floor. It is abuse. That said, I can see another battle on the spanking vs. not-spanking coming on. Obviously, people wish to express opinion on that issue, so, very often, even a remotely connected to the original post mentioning of an ear-pulling or butt smacking gets everybody going. I wish there were a one-time, special feature on that problem and then everybody can get it out of their system.

Nanny Taxi said...

Being called a bitch, and a ho is just going to lead to low self esteem, especially for the teenager. The first guy that comes along that shows her the affection she should've gotten from her father will be the one to get her pregnant.

I've seen it happen time and time again. Where men get this idea that they need to be this huge disciplinarian with their kids? Reasoning with a 2 year old is like trying to herd cats, but slapping them to the floor is no answer! Where is the son? All he is doing is teaching him to do the same with his kids someday..and the cycle continues.

gigidi said...

phht. as a child, my two siblings and i got the occasional spanking now and again. nothing serious. both of my parents were teachers & knew a little something about children. my mother was a well known and beloved kindergarten teacher who worked with special ed kids for 30 years. like i said. she knew a little something.... we grew to respect our parents as authority figures and ended up having VERY happy lives as a result of the mutual respect because they could take us everywhere without fear of us misbehaving. we were smart, good kids as a result of discipline. we knew there would be consequences, and as a result were on our best behavior, we're all successful adults (sisters taking her Mcat's next month) and life was EASY. let's face it, it's easier to have fun and go with the flow than it is to misbehave!

on the other hand, we'd see parents who have no clue how to discipline their kids, refuse to spank, and consequently, the child finds their parent to be a joke. this isn't always the case, but parents who are adamantly against all forms of spanking have harder times socializing their children and bringing them out in public.... making the child's life even harder. this is a child who tests the patience of the parent, and pushes and pushes to see how far they can get away with being jerks before anything happens. and when nothing DOES happen, the behavior continues.

to me, spanking works. (anything beyond a smack on the butt is child abuse) don't tell me there's anything wrong with it. when i have children, they will be spanked if they intentionally disrespect me. but if they're anything like their mom, smart children learn very very fast, won't have to go through it again, and will watch in disbelief as some of their peers behave like a**es and make fools of themselves and their parents.

etereia said...

Oh, Gigidi, wait until the anti-spankers see your comment. I tried to express an opinion similar to yours and I didn't hear the end of it. But I will say it again, spanking works and it does not leave resentment, it does not scar you for life, and it does not make your parents bad.

visitor said...

Spanking your child (not violently, just a little swat will probably do) isn't abuse, anymore than not spanking your child means they won't respect you and won't listen to anything you say. I wasn't spanked and I happened to be a very well-behaved child. There are many factors that contribute to a child's behavior besides your style of discipline. As long as you're consistent, the child will learn.

whaa said...

Five children?

hmmmmmmmmm mmmm said...

To pro-spanking parents:

How would you respond if your nanny spanked your child?

Or is this reserved for you?

Neighbor?

Or is this reserved for you?

etereia said...

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I am a nanny and I would never ever spank my charges. Nor would I pull their ears, kick them, or put my hands on them in any way. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MY CHILDREN....But, yea, I was spanked when I was a kid - for all the right reasons; I deserved it every single time. So, I guess I will probably spank my kids, when I have them. Nobody else will, though.

metro north said...

Dumb Dumbs,
Someone said this 'on the other hand, we'd see parents who have no clue how to discipline their kids, refuse to spank, and consequently, the child finds their parent to be a joke.'

Don't you get that parents who spank are every bit as ignorant and outright dumb as those who fail to discipline? Don't you get that there is something called discipline that is in fact consistent, sensible, with consequence and it works? It doesn't involve laying a hand on a child?

Why oh why is it so hard for those of you with the compulsion to feel the sting upon the soft skin of defenseless child? Do you relish in the sound of your smack and spanks? Are you in fact, as revolting and dumb as you sound?

Do you send mother's day cards to mom that say "thank you for spanking me". Have you been to see a therapist? Please go.

I keep hoping this debate goes away. Finally, I must have my word.

egan said...

spanking works by instilling fear of future physical pain in a child. It does leave resentment,but the children are so afraid of going against their parents that they never address it in their adult life. Furthermore, they are so desperate to please their abuser that they abuse their own children.

As for it not scarring you for life, everything that happens to you as a child is ground for a scar. Children are fragile. Be a good parent and spend your parenthood nourishing the child and actively aware of how to positively affect the child's future.

cali mom said...

So, spanking your kids is an act that results in "mutual respect"? Yeah, I always hit people that I "respect". What an absolute load of bullcrap. Hard physical contact between one person's hand and another person's body IS hitting. If it were just touching, you wouldn't be discussing it.

But wow, what a refreshing change to see some sensib;e counter-posts to the usual "smack them hard and they'll know who's boss. You can't possibly teach a toddler that fire is hot without smacking them or get a 5 year old to behave without smacking them" bullshit. Yes, there ARE ways of positive discipline that work and that do NOT involve inflicting humiliation and pain on someone you think you are teaching empathy and proper behavior to. Anything else is just "do as I say, not as I do". How any idiot can convince themselves they are teaching their kids to do anything BUT resort to physically overpowering someone to get desired results is a real mystery. Actually, considering what they've described of their parents, it really isn't.

worlds best nanny said...

I am usually a pro-spanker, but did anyone notice the spanking did no good? He would spank them and they would just do it again! The older girl is his stepdaughter, what did mom do besides cry?

Otherwise I see nothing with a tap on butt once in a while just to let'em know who is in charge.

etereia said...

I don't think this discussion will ever go away. I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am most definitely not scared of my parents. When I did get spanked, I knew I had crossed a line and had really pushed the wrong buttons - nothing as dramatic as being terrified that I would get hit again in the future. Also, I don't remember walking around naked, so when I got smacked on the butt, my parents never actually had the pleasure of feeling "the sting upon the soft skin of defenseless child." All they felt was the fabric of my pants, and all I felt was the notion that I had to give whatever mischief I was up to a rest. And I am very happy to report that I never bought a machine gun and went demolishing my classmates, I never attacked my teacher with a knife, because she reprimanded me, when I was in FIRST grade, and I never went nuts on my mom at the grocery store when she refused to buy me candy (ahem, real stories I have witnessed or heard of here in the US.) I have said it before, I love this country and that's why I chose to come and live here, but there are a couple of things I don't like and one of them is parenting.

Austin Nanny said...

Gigidi---when your parents were teaching you respect and discipline, did they forget to teach you about capitalization?

Austin Nanny said...

If you watched the show, the stepdad said several times "This is how I was raised, I was hit, and I don't see anything wrong with it."

This is exactly what previous posters have stated: abused kids will turn into abusers.

Chantel said...

I started watching this episode, got to the part where he smacked his little girls so hard she fell, and turned it off. It made me sick to my stomach to see that. Then to see his wife standing by him. I'm sorry, a smack in the face is considered abuse in my book, and if anyone I was married to/living with/etc. EVER did that to my child, you better believe I wouldn't be sticking around.

JRT said...

Worlds Worst Nanny said " tap on butt once in a while just to let'em know who is in charge."

My first husband used to hit me anytime he felt disrespected. After a few hits, yes I knew who was in charge.

Violence begets violence begets violence begets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violencebegets violence begets violence

Marypoppin'pills said...

Wow.

That about says it all.

cali mom said...

Yes, it does. Sickening. And even more so that some halfwits still promote the behavior. Scariest of all, at least one of them even gets paid to act out its domination fantasies on helpless kids.

etereia said...

Yes, it is exactly the same - on the one hand, rarely tapping a kid's behind, because he/she just did something really dangerous or trying, and on the other hand, a psychotic husband, who beats the hell out of his wife just cause he feels like it. Great comparison, bravo.

cali mom said...

OK, so your point is that it's OK for an adult to hit a child, but not another adult? Or that, it's OK for a female to hit a male or another female but not OK for a male to hit a female? Or that, it's OK for an adult to hit a child if the child does something "trying" but not OK for one person to hit another person their own size if that person does something "trying"?

In case you hadn't figured this out yet, parenting is "trying". That doresn't mean we get to hit kids because they make us feel disrespected, no matter what YOUR parents did. It's not OK.

And again, if it were really "tapping" and not hitting, there would be no issue in it and what would be the purpose of doing it? Unless you never even touch your kids, so when you "tap" them they can then consider it a spanking and they know you are punishing them, because you feel overwhelmed, helpless and angry? In other words, because they are being "trying"?

etereia said...

OK, I, at least, try to see the other point of view, when I argue with somebody. And, OK, good luck raising your child your own way - I don't recall calling anybody a bad parent. But, not OK being called halfwit, when I don't agree with you. I am a nanny for three families and I have been with them for five years. I never put my hands on any of the kids and we all respect and love each other. Looks to me like my parents must have done right by me.

group home worker said...

Okay so here it goes, you were spanked as a child so therefore you spank your own child(ren). You see nothing wrong with it because you were spanked as a child. You think that your kids won't grow up to do the same to their children? They will and some might take it a step farther and it will lead to abuse. As previous posters have mentioned, violence leads to violence. Stop the cycle of abuse at you!

Elphaba Rulz said...

VERY abusive Father in my eyes!

I DO spank my children (maybe 2 to 3 times a year), and HATE to see spanking be used in a completely wrong way!
It does not work to spank in anger or to spank constantly several times a day. THAT kind of spanking is abusive!!
I spanked my 3 year old when she ran in the street...She could have been killed, and I not only wanted her to HEAR my "NO"...I wanted her to FEEL and REMEMBER my "NO"!

mercy said...

Lord, I so loathe the child running in the street argument. Just what kind of children are these that run amuck like this? Perhaps if you had proper non violent discipline in the first place, your children would not be tearing off the curb trying to throw themselves in front of a bus.
This is ridiculous, really. That lesson could have been learned without hitting and you are ignorant (a fact, not namecalling) if you think otherwise. I feel so bad for your children. What else will they have to endure at your mercy?

I have never met an intelligent person who spanks their children. Never.

bella said...

Mercy
I LOVE your posts!

Please NEVER leave!!!

You go straight for the throat AND you're funny!

creeps said...

I think that if you're accused of child abuse you should never use the phrase "love the kids to death". It's just creepy.

etereia said...

Nobody obviously read my initial comment. What this father did was horrible. This is abuse. Cursing your kids and slapping them every day is abuse. My mom has spanked me a couple of times in my whole life - for some very good reasons. It did not really hurt. THIS was not abuse.
And "I have never met an intelligent person who spanks their children. Never."...haha. So, you are saying that entire European, Asian and Latino countries are populated with idiots, cause they do spank when there is a reason. That's a pretty brave statement.

etereia said...

Cali mom, I wish you and I would meet one day, somewhere on a playground or something (since, I think, you have mentioned in previous comments that you live in the Bay Area, same as me), so you can see how much my charges love me. I am not a dimwit and I am not ignorant. I also wish you would stop calling ugly names and argue your point of view like an intelligent person.

Rosi said...

There is a huge difference between spanking a child and abusing a spouse. The difference is the parent SHOULD be in charge of the child. The parent SHOULD be controlling the child. In a marriage the two parties SHOULD be equals. The problem didn't start when the ex hit the poster the problem started when the poster's ex thought he should be able to control her and be in charge of her. And if him hitting her convinced her that he was in charge then that is even more of a problem.

Any intelligent child should recognize the difference between a proper relationship where a parent is in charge and a friendship or relationship where the parties are equals.

I do not condone child abuse but I am still on the fence about spanking. I have read some comments I find persuasive and many that I do not. The "because you are dumb and I am smart" argument just naseautes me.

And when I do have kids some day if I do decide to spank them I would have no problem with someone else who was in charge spanking them either.

hate spankers and their evil spawn said...

You spank freaks belong on alt.net looking for men to spank you. Talk about creepy.

As for applauding your Mom for spanking you but saying it never hurt, WTF? If it didn't hurt, why did she have to choose to hit you? Why couldn't she have done anything else? You don't make sense.

cali mom said...

Thank you Mercy!

Etereia, so describe if you can, why a touch is called a touch but a spank is called a spank. If spanking is NOT hitting, and there is no difference between that and touching, why are different names assigned to the different actions? Why couldn't your parents have disciplined you by "touching" you instead of spanking/hitting you?

You make no sense at all. You brag on the one hand that because your parents hit you whenever they felt like it, and so did the parents of all the kids you grew up with, that you are an exemplary human being, who prides herself on not hitting kids. But hitting kids because you can't get them to listen to you any other way is fine, as long as it's only because they have made you lose your patience. (Or, to use your own phrase, because they have done something "trying".)

Come on, demonstrate your superior "intelligence" and make me understand the difference between a "touch" and a "spank". Because you seem to disagree with MY definition of the difference.

etereia said...

Cali Mom, so, it really does not make sense to you when I say that I am a good nanny and I never touch my charges, because: 1. The parents don't believe in spanking; 2. I would never hit somebody else's child, no matter what he/she does; 3. The kids do listen to me, because I am good with them and I am NOT their mom (they reserve the monster behavior for mommy and daddy). But, yea, I was occasionally spanked as a kid - open hand, on the butt, without much force. NOT slammed to the ground, NOT kicked, NOT slapped in the face, and NOT cursed at like a sailor. I don't have kids, yet. Maybe my kids will be really good and not at all stubborn (like their mom :-) Maybe I will never have a reason to put my hands on them. Maybe my husband or I will think of a better way to discipline them. I don't know. People change and their opinions change. But for now, my point of view is what it is. DOES THIS REALLY NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO YOU? SERIOUSLY?

etereia said...

Who is talking about "touch"? Where did I ever use this word? Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I say that my parents hit me whenever they felt like it? I am talking about the difference between a tap on the butt (in extreme situations) and a full on fist in the face or a kick in the stomach (whenever you are in the mood for it).

Elphaba Rulz said...

Mercy,
Good for you! I'm glad that your children ALWAYS respond to time-outs and gentle words.
My Children USUALLY respond to time-outs and talking too...but every once in a blue moon they don't. I don't run around smacking my kids in the face (NEVER EVER), and I VERY RARELY spank their bums.
My Daughter is now 7 and has only recieved 2 spankings in her life. one when she was almost hit by a car while chasing a cat...well, I spanked her and then hugged her while sobbing my eyes out!
My Parents NEVER spanked me and I was a Holy Terror as a child! When I was 8, my Great Grandmother (92 years) was over for dinner and witnessed me smacking my little brother around. I remember seeing her walk up to me and then grabbing my ear and giving me 3 BIG swats on the behind. I didn't cry...I was in SHOCK! I will never forget that day, and from that point on I never EVER beat up my brother again.
Now I wouldn't use that kind of discipline on my kids (I can't be that harsh), but I sure respect my Grammy! She saved me!
I love my Parents God Bless them...but they were big time wimps!
It's okay not to spank...but it's never ruled out as an option in my house!

piper said...

eteria sounds like a deviant who is itching to get her hands on her charge and spank them up.

elphaba has another child running in the street story. seriously?

you people!
you scare me.
I would never hire a nanny who spanked her own children, not ever.
There is an ignorance that comes with having that spanking card in your pocket. Almost like that is the top dog of discipline when in reality there are 2,000 ways to teach children.

cali mom said...

OK, Eteria: define the difference between a "tap" and a "hit". Apparently a "tap" doesn't hurt (or so you claimed) but it somehow magically made you do whatever your mom and dad wanted you to do when they "tapped" you. And despite the fact that you are happy about your parents having "tapped" you whenever you did something "trying", you keep bragging that you don't "tap" your charges. Should I congratulate you then, on being a paid caregiver who does not hit kids?

gabriela said...

wow. this thread has gone off topic.

in response to the question re: the man in the video--

yes. he is abusive. do i think he should be put in jail? i think the damage done to his children and family would be so great that that would not likely be the best answer.

also, on the off topic point:
i was spanked as a child. i was the child of very young parents who are now the greatest people in the world to me. they were not right, but mistakes can be forgiven.

so. does this mean that i must be the product of inbred idiots? must i be 'unintelligent,' as so many people seem to think? must i be on that strain of dna that humanity is evolving out of? (and when people start that 'more highly evolved' argument i love it!! as if there is a spanking gene!!! where is that person? (= )

kids, i attend grad school at an ivy league university!

yeah, i think the guy from florida is a dumbass. but he probably loves his kids, too. everyone is human at the end of the day, no more and no less.

sara said...

Spankees become cutters or do other things to abuse, sabotage, punish themselves. You can take whole courses on the damages inflicted by spanking. Forget how hard you hit or tap the child, it's all about humiliation.

Don't do it.

And batten down the hatches, we're in for a fierce storm tomorrow night. If you are stuck in with your children all day, please don't spank them!

etereia said...

Cali Mom, I believe I answered your question about the difference between a tap and a hit in one of my previous comments. If you still can not make the distinction, I suggest that you tap yourself on the behind and then punch yourself in the teeth - see if there is any difference.
OK, I am done with this discussion. Talk to all of you again soon on another thread.

what said...

etereia - what about what sara said? what's your view on that?

gabriela said...

sara:

do you believe that all 'spankees' become cutters or self-abusers?

do you think that children who are not spanked do not do those types of things?

a very basic tenet of human behavior statistic study is that correlation does not equal causation. just because some people cut themselves, and they may have been spanked, does not mean that the spanking caused the cutting.

etereia said...

I said I was done, but you people really know how to pull me back into the battle. What, Gabriela voiced my point on the cutting very thoroughly. In fact, I first heard about cutting when I came to the US 5 years ago - we don't do crap like that in my country. And I saw the results of "2,000 ways to teach children" in Columbine and Ohio (we don't do crap like that either.)

Blah. said...

Spanking is reserved for the parents because they are the ones in charge of raising and correcting the kids, not the nanny unless of course parents give them permission.

I don't see why people make a big fuzz about a light spank or a light smack on the hands. It has to be completely justified and used as last resort of course, not out of nowhere. You're not hurting the child in any serious way. I'm sure most of you have been spanked at least once, it's not a big deal.

Blah. said...

Egan that's BS. My mother spanked me for the right reasons, and I never ever resented her for it EVER. I knew she was right and I knew she did it for a reason. And it taught me to not cross boundaries and not disrespect her. I love her more than anything and she's been the perfect mother. I don't know why people here are sooooooo sooooo uptight about spanking. IT'S A SIN! IT'S A SIN! Please.

Elphaba Rulz said...

Etereia,

"tap yourself on the behind and then punch yourself in the teeth-see if there is any difference."

LOL! I love you for this comment!

honest nanny said...

pro-spanker here!

i was spanked by anyone who could get their hands on me and i deserved it! i used to crawl under the pews at church and poke people with safety pins. lol.

i don't resent my mother for the discipline style she chose. i'm very close to my mother. i'm in therapy for other issues, but never once has spanking been something to be discussed.

this man on the show was abusive, he wasn't disciplining he was hitting. there is a difference between using spanking as a discipline method and using it because you are angry.

and i don't see why name calling here is necessary, we all have different opinions and different discipline styles, calling someone "stupid, dumb, & ignorant" are irrelevant to the discussion.

cali mom said...

Etereia, no you didn't. But you have deomonstrated that when given the chance, you'd rather turn tail and run than display that superior intelligence you so love to brag about.

Maybe you didn't understand the question the last 2 times I asked you, but I'll give you another chance. I did not ask you to define the difference between tapping oneself on the butt and punching oneself in the teeth. I asked you to explain why "tapping" a child on the butt, which you claim never hurts, is somehow magically effective in modifying their behavior, if it is not the same thing as "hitting". (Which it clearly is.) So go on, here's yet another opportunity for you to explain how YOU feel that spanking is not hittting.

Can't do it, can you?

I do not believe that smacking a child's bottom with an open hand is on the same levekl as those who so fondly remember their parents kicking them in the shins or back, punching them in the teeth, or threatening to do them grave bodily injury. But I DO think it is always a cop-out, purely emotive and ultimately counter-productive action, which ALWAYS has the effect (and cause), whether admitted by the parent or not, that hitting someone may get the results they want when all else fails. And a kid can skip other options and go straight to the method demonstrated by their parents.

You seriously plan to tell your child that it's OK for Mommy and Daddy to hit him because they are his parents, but it's not OK for him to hit the smaller kid at school that made him mad? What if he explains that he just "tapped" them, and it didn't really hurt them, they just cried because they were mad and wanted attention?

cali mom said...

And this repeated discussion made me remember suddenly the times that my parents spanked me. No, I do not feel abused, in fact I didn't even remember it happening until I thought about whether or not they did, but I can tell you, the times I do remember, it was very clearly out of frustration, because they had been ineffective in their previous attempts at discipline, and they'd either reach out and smack without a word (my dad did once, and I didn't even know why) or (my mom) I remembered once being in a screaming froth and at wit's end, overwhelmed and helpless at controlling me and my sisters and turning me over to spank hard, a bunch of times. I don't remember in the slightest what I was doing or if being hit made me stop, but the bottom line is, my parents were really ineffective, bad parents who probably shouldn't have had kids, even though they loved us, and they spanked, at least once in a while. Because they failed to communicate properly to us so had to resort to hitting.

etereia said...

Cali Mom, I am overwhelmed with gratitude, because you gave me another chance to explain myself *eye-roll* See, here is the thing. I most definitely did not intend to turn my back and run; I just figured I would never get through to you and make you at least consider my point of view. Besides, I am sure there will be another instance, where we will be sparring again :-) This whole online war did bug me a little. I got tired of your personal attacks, and being called ugly names and picked on by you. So, during the weekend I mentioned this whole thing to my bosses, my parents and some of my friends. Even though some of these people are firm non-spankers (particularly my bosses) they were not happy with the way you handled your side of the argument.
The funny thing is - I kind of like you - meaning you are passionate about your cause and you stand by your beliefs, just like me. So, please, leave me in peace for a couple of days. I don't want to have to switch on to my monster mode and start hurling unnecessary insults.

etereia said...

Cali Mom, I just re-read your last two posts and I changed my mind. I am taking back whatever I just wrote. You asked for it. You are a ... to think that only your opinion is viable. You are ..., if you really fail to see that there IS something wrong with the way kids are raised here - what with them buying guns and shooting their classmates and teachers and terrorizing their parents. You are ..., if you don't see it necessary to first be a PARENT and then be a FRIEND with your kids. You are ..., if you think that I will agree with you, while you resort to personal cheap shots at me (fill in the blanks as you see fit).
Now, the explanation you are so insistent on getting. I don't know what I will tell my kids, cause I don't have them, yet. Maybe I will never have to touch them. My sister has never gotten hit, because she was a very good kiddo. My brother and I, on the other hand, were very hard-headed and stubborn. Same family, same parents, totally different characters. You keep asking about why my parents resorted to spanking. Well, see, it was more like a warning in extreme situations. I knew they would never beat the hell out of me, so when I got swatted on the behind I knew something big was coming - meaning a canceled ski-trip, or my favorite toy taken away forever, and other stuff like that. And I tell you, I was more than happy to get that reminder, rather than lose my favorite things. Did they smack me in frustration? Probably, once in a while. They are human. And where I come from, there are no nannies, no cleaning people, no gardeners, and no SAHMs. They worked very hard to provide for us. I had the best childhood ever. I am at a loss as to how to beat it into your ... head that I don't resent them, I love them more than anything in the world, and that I deserved it every time I got spanked. I am just being realistic. I have seen real abuse. I had a classmate in first grade, whose mom would beat him half to death and then she would lock him by himself in the house for days at a time. She got reported and the authorities took him away from her. This is a horrific abuse. A swat on the butt is not. Is spanking the best way to discipline? Probably not. I keep saying it, time and again, maybe your kids are mellow and nice and you just don't need to use harsh measures. If that's the case, good for all of you. But why can't you understand that some kids are just wilder? I have a good heart, I am not evil, I have actually never hit anybody in my life. I am not stupid, but wherever the hell did you get the impression that I said I had superior intelligence? My fiancee's father left them, when he was a kid, and now he resents his father for not staying and actually disciplining him.
When I have my first kid, I will be sure to find you here, on this blog (I love this web-site) and give you an update on my parenting.
I guess, now I have to apologize for my "invisible" insults :-) Take care.

Jane Doe said...

Cali Mom,
If you were to join Nanny Watchers on Facebook, I would gladly appoint you Anti Spanking Czar.

I appreciate that you have taken the time to express your point of view time and again on here. I believe we shame the same POV, but quite frankly some of these running into the street posts just exhaust me.

:)

cali mom said...

So Etereia, run by me just one more time your explanation of why spanking is "not" hitting, because if you thought you had ever given it, I managed to miss it. Or wait, was that because you never could explain it? Why, yes. That would be the reason. So you concede then, that spanking IS hitting. Fair enough. Thanks.

Jane, yes. It's like trying to teach pigs to fly. (Watch out for the puddles, Etereia will be shedding some major tears at that expression, I'm sure.) Ans I will check out the facebook group.

etereia said...

Why, Cali Mom, now that I answered you, I have a couple of questions for you. You said you have never met intelligent people who spank their kids. And then you said your parents used to spank you. So, I am dying to know what your mom and dad's intake on that is. Are you saying they are dumb? Do they know about it? My second question is, why did you single me out to receive your wrath? Quite a few people expressed the same or similar to my opinion. Why did you unload your fury exactly on me? Just curious.
Jane Doe, I tried to stop this crap days ago. She is egging me on and I can't resist. Sorry about that.

cali mom said...

Oh Etereia, you are too funny. I never said that I had never met any intelligent people who spank their kids. Just as you seem to imagine that anyone who uses an adjective in a sentence that you don't like is personally attacking YOU, you seem to be confusing everyone else who has disagreed with you with me. There are many who disagree with you that spanking = "good parenting."

Now, show me the post where I said what you imagine I said. Quote the whole thing please, with time stamp. TIA.

etereia said...

Let's see...
"How any idiot can convince themselves they are teaching their kids to do anything BUT resort to physically overpowering someone to get desired results is a real mystery." Feb 27, 2009 8:14:00 PM
"Sickening. And even more so that some halfwits promote the behavior." Feb 28, 2009 12:28:00 AM
The last time I checked, idiot and halfwit were not synonyms of intelligence.
And now, I really am done arguing with you, because I can see you are the main pig who can not learn to fly...or to argue like a normal person, either.

WTF? said...

>>>>>Is spanking the best way to discipline? Probably not.

Well, there you go. When you know better, you do better. Don't your future children deserve the best? Do your research on positive discipline long before you have kids so you'll be prepared.

I also want to point out that you've stated multiple times that you "deserved" to be hit. I find that disturbing. No child deserves that. Do you really want your future children to grow up feeling like they are do bad that they deserve to have people hitting them? That's just not right. When we love our parents, it's easy to try to defend everything they do. We have a tendency to view them and our childhood through rose colored glasses. It's okay to acknowledge that our parents were human and made mistakes in raising us without being disloyal. In fact, it's the only way to improve things for our own children.

cali mom said...

Um, Etereia, before you go throwing yet another silly little tantrum, *please* make a vague attempt at sticking to your original story. (Unless you really enjoy making an ass out of yourself, which may be the case, based on the evidence at hand.)

Last night you said: "You said you have never met intelligent people who spank their kids."

So today, you have quoted a pair of totally different posts from me where I did NOT say what you claim I said, and you seem to think that by quoting irrelevant posts, you are proving that *I* said what I did NOT say? and you seem to believe that you are somehow garnering credibility by doing so?

I may do you the favor of locating the post you are remembering, just for the fun of proving you wrong, but I'm afraid I'll be pretty busy the rest of the day and this evening, so you might want to do the homework for yourself. Unless you'd rathger "argue like a normal person" and keep dodging the questions posed to you.

WTF, obviously Etereia's parents already did their damage. She's admitted they made her think she "deserved" to be hit and that she will probably instill that notion into her own kids when she has them, and decides to start hitting them.

etereia said...

WTF?, way to go. Here, I will not argue with you at all. You sound very reasonable - thanks for that. I kept saying: "I don't know what I would do with my kids, because I really don't - no kids, yet." I love my parents with all my heart. I don't think they did a lot of things wrong raising me - you are right that I will defend that. I was a very wild and stubborn child and a couple of times I did some very dangerous and stupid things, even though my parents warned me a million times before that. So, after I very nearly got injured - they swatted me on the butt. Was it the best way to snap me out of my stubborn spell - probably not. But it worked with me. I just knew what I was doing was very wrong. So, yea, I deserved to be spanked.
Now, I work with kids and I find new ways to deal with problems with them every day. I never hit, spank or pull ears, cause they are not my children. But again, I will see how it goes with my own.

Miserly Bastard said...

I watched the video. This is not child abuse. It is bad parenting, but the State has no role in regulating non-abusive parenting choices.