Received Saturday, June 21, 2008 - Perspective & Opinion
O.k., new day, new problem. My mother in-law arrived on Tuesday to stay with us for approximately 3 weeks while some work on her home is being done. Much needed work. My mother-in-law is moderately wealthy but lives in a small 2 bedroom house with a basement. She doesn't use a dryer, but hangs all of her clothing in the dryer. She washes her clothing in a very old fashioned washing machine. She doesn't have cable because it costs too much. She reads the neighbors paper after the neighbor has read it. Meanwhile, she has about 700,000 in the bank.
I tell you this as a general background. She isn't a pleasure to be around and I was the worst case scenario for her pride and joy to marry. She is a hard worker. She mows her own grass.
I spoke to my nanny (who has been with us 14 months) before this and told her it was unavoidable that she would be staying here. The nanny is a live out and I like her a great deal. She is very quiet and doesn't socialize with a lot of other people but she is very warm with me and my child. She's quiet around my husband, so he doesn't get her like I do. But that's more of a reflection of his personality then hers. (I've been told he is quite intimidating.)
My husband wanted an Israeli nanny. The nanny is not an Israeli nanny. He's polite to the nanny but doesn't think she does enough in the way of intellectual and creative stimulation. He thinks his mother is misunderstood and he coddles her. She was married to a verbally abusive man her entire life who treated her like his maid. My husband has a lot of guilt about the fact that even as a young adult, he never stood up to his father, even while in the presence of such abuse. As such, I try to be understanding about the nature of his relationship with his mother.
On Wednesday, the nanny arrived and began her regular day. MIL was there at every turn questioning her about what she was doing and why and suggesting other things. She asked the nanny when she would read to the children (2 & 3.8) and when the nanny said, "when I have time", Mil lost it. She called up my husband and claimed nanny was rude. Since then, things have only escalated. Mil is attempting to care for the children citing the nanny's ineffectiveness. She has decried the nanny as rude, surly, insubordinate and lazy. The nanny, who I love and understand hasn't been on her best behavior either. The nanny always loads the dishes in the dishwasher that are left in the sink in the morning or after lunch. If I am working from home, she will even come and take my dishes from my office. The nanny seems to have gone out of her way to leave dishes and not touch anything that mil has touched or dirtied, a point that did not go unnoticed by mil. The nanny also fed the older child lunch even though mil walked to the deli. This became a big argument over the fact that mil didn't even offer to get the nanny a sandwich.
I have tried to be a peacemaker between not just those two parties but my husband as well who claims the nanny is showing no respect for his mother. I don't pretend to you that I like my mother in law, and for the most part, despite what comes out of her mouth, I am as nice as I can be to her. Perhaps I am curt or brief in the time I spend with her, but I am nice. If I put myself in my husband's shoes, I can imagine that if it were my mother, I would be incensed. To that end, I am a bit disappointed in the nanny
On Thursday night, I drove nanny to the train station and spoke with her in the kindest way. I thanked her for trying to be patient. I told her we only had two more weeks left. I apologized. I told her that mil does want to be a grandmother and relishes her time with the children (all true) and asked her if she could please try not to disclude her from their activities. The nanny told me that she was an impossible woman but she promised she would try harder. I drove home from the train station pleased with that result. I informed my husband who basically said that the nanny was replaceable and his mother was not and that was his house and blah blah blah. In short, he remained bitter about the things his mother had passed on.
On Friday morning, my husband asked the nanny why none of the "Boy 2's" games from his birthday had been opened. The nanny didn't really have a response and my husband told her that they were educational games and they weren't doing "boy 2" any good sitting in the closet.
I was in the next room but I overheard the tone of his voice and I don't think it needed to be as abrupt as it was.
Today is Saturday. Yesterday, the nanny was due to leave at 6, I was running late, I called and told her to be ready and I scooped her up and took her to the train. I had a call from work and I barely got a 'have a good weekend' out and even in retrospect am not quite able to assess what her mood was. I walk in the door at 6:20 and my mil is waiting. I know something is on her mind. I ask her what is wrong. She asks when "husband" will be home. I tell her. Then I say, "what is it, tell me". She shakes her head and says she will wait.
"Husband" gets home late. "Boy 1 and boy 2" are asleep. Husband sits down to eat cold pizza. I sit down to talk to him about his day. Mil resurfaces, "I need to speak to you" she says. She looks at "husband", ignoring me entirely. I look up at this post and I realize it is probably longer than it should be. I wasn't sure what to include and what not, but let me cut to the gist. MIL produces a wad of tinfoil, dramatically. "Husband" and I look at her. "Husband" goes to poke at it. Mil snatches it away. What is it? We ask. Mil claims that said object ( a brown nugget) is a pill that the nanny put in her coffee this AM.
Mil claims that on Friday morning, she was in the kitchen reading the paper and having coffee. She claims that "Boy 2" called out for her to help him get dressed because he didn't want the Nanny to help him. She claims that on her way back to the kitchen, she passed the Nanny who 'heckled her'. (?). Once she returned to her place at the kitchen table, she thought something was off. She took a sip of her coffee and it tasted strange, so she took the cup to the sink and dumped it out. In to the sink went the coffee and this brown pill that she now had in foil. Mil was claiming the nanny tried to kill her. The nanny tried to poison her.
I didn't believe it at all. "Husband" got upset with me over the tone I was taking with "Mil" Husband suggested we could resolve this right now by driving to the pharmacy. Mil thought the police should be called. The two of them drove to the pharmacy. I don't want to know what was said because it is our town pharmacy and I will have to show my face in there, but they returned with a verdict. It was a pill. (I had suggested it was clumped coffee grounds). The pill was a easily identified by the pharmacist as a 'Senekot' tablet. Or about 1/3 of a Senekot tablet as that was what Mil had gathered.
Husband believes Mil that nanny did put Senekot in her coffee. I asked why Nanny would put one Senekot in a constipated 70 year old's coffee. I suggested it would be a favor and not a punishment. Husband tells me the pharmacist says that they would dissolve quickly in a hot beverage so there could have been more. I do not think the nanny had anything to do with this pill in Mil's coffee. Husband thinks Nanny was angry about his instruction regarding the educational games which came about as a direct complaint against the nanny by Mil. Mil claims she was more angry when "Boy 2" asked for her to get him dressed and said, "I don't want "Nanny", I want you."
I have a day to resolve this issue. I don't want to lose the nanny. I get to work at home about 2 or 3 days a month, but the soonest day I can work from home would be Wednesday. Husband cannot miss any work. Mil claims that she doesn't feel safe around Nanny. I am to the point where everything I say is angering my husband. He suggests I am choosing the nanny over his own mother. Mil informed me about an hour ago that she is the victim and not me, so it isn't up to me to decide anything. She suggested that perhaps she could go to the police department and get advice from them. I am wholly against that fearing what could arise from any sympathy MIL might gather from the police. Husband had been threatening all day to put an ad in the NY Times for a new nanny. I have been able to hold him off but he reminds me that he could easily put an ad on Craig's list and get a hundred responses.
To complicate matters, I have a good acquaintances in the neighborhood with a child the same age as boy#2. Nanny watches her child on Monday afternoon from 12-5 along with mine. She is another person that I could run this by in hopes she would join me in supporting the nanny, but there is always the chance that she too could be tripped up with sympathy for mil. (Despite what I have told you about MIL, she has a very smooth, fake facade that fools many people. The nanny, is as I have told you, not overly friendly with other people. She is a bit of an introvert. Any people I share this situation with could be quick to judge the nanny based one their own negative perceptions of nannies in general.
I'm stuck. What can I do? If wind of this gets to the Nanny, she will surely leave me high and dry. Even before I knew this, on Thursday I wondered if MIL could cause her to not return after the weekend.
Peaceful resolution? Is it possible? If you've read this far, thank you. If you have any productive advice, please share.
147 comments:
LOL
Sorry but come on...why would the nanny do that. If so your MIL deserved it. I think your MIL is the one putting the tablet in her own drink.
And I don't blame the nanny why should she clean up (dishes, etc) after your MIL thats not her problem.
And for your husband to lose his temper because some of his "games" weren't opened. Give me a break. Is your husband that lazy that he can't spend time with the kids? Why doesn't he open the games and suggest the kids play them with him. You guys should really be involved in your kids life as well.
And another thing can't the nanny work less hours if your dear MIL want to be a "real grandma"
Your stuck...you don't know what to do??
How about staying home for awhile and being a mom
Could you give the nanny time off with pay while your psycho mil is visiting?? If she REALLY wants to care for your kids and the kids prefer her to the nanny (like hell)call her bluff and let her take care of them. The nanny will be out of the picture and won't return until the bitch is gone (by the way, any suspicion that mil put the pill in the coffee herself only to pin in on the nanny??) God, poor you. You don't need this and your husband sounds a lot like his father.....tell him it's your house too.
7:37
How about taking grammar lessons?
MIL wants to spend more time with grandkids - great! Give the nanny two weeks of vacation starting now. MIL can take care of the kids since she clearly knows best.
Also, your husband sounds like a total ass - I can't imagine why it should be a nanny's responsibility to open kid's b-day gifts.
Signed - mom who appreciates her very good nanny
I agree with the above posts. Your mil sounds like a complete immature jerk and I think she probably put the pill in her own coffee. I don't think your husband should have been that rude to the nanny about the games, he could have opened them if he really wanted them open. He was bringing it up because his mother mentioned it and I think she is trying to get the nanny fired. I mean the mil is living in your home because hers is being worked on. You could have made her get a hotel or something and she is causing all this trouble. Honestly, I don't know if I would trust her with the children. But I definitely wouldn't fire the nanny over any of this, she has done nothing wrong. Maybe give her the weeks off with pay just so you don't have the deal with all the fighting.
I also don't think its a huge deal the nanny is not picking up your mil's dishes, she shouldn't have to. You sound like you are sadly thrown in the middle of this where your husband automatically takes his mothers side because he feels that he has to and this poor nanny is being treated like crap by his mother. I'm sure the mil has been a lot meaner to the nanny when neither of you have been around.
So case in point (sorry I wrote a lot), I definitely do not think you should fire the nanny over this and cannot believe your husband (who needs to be nicer) would suggest such a thing, your mil sounds like a little witch and you and your poor nanny are stuck in this. Granted, the nanny maybe should be acting a little nicer but she has probably had it with your mil.
Your mother in law and your husband sound like spoiled brats. And whose house is it anyway? Because it soundslike your MIL and her son are on one team and you on another. Seriously, the way this sounds I wouldn't be too surprised if your MIL whips out a boob and breastfeeds your husband as a reward every time he chooses her over you.
Whatever his guilt issuesre about his parents, he needs to grow up and stop treating oyu the way his fatthe apparently treated his mother.
Sick, sick, sick.
And give oyur nanny this time off. She doesn't deserve to be dragged into this sick situation.
You poor dear!
OP,
I am a little upset by the fact that it appears that you have plagiarized one of my fan fictions. I am reporting you to the help desk at fanfiction.net as we speak.
just kidding.
Op, your MIL sounds nutso. Poor nanny. Tell the nanny she has the time off while MIL is here. Put your foot down to DH and tell him you're not dealing with this crapola and being in the middle of this fiasco.
Good luck! Keep us updated! :)
OK, will have to finish the post later, AND the replies, but so far I can say that MIL is a vindictive control freak who would love nothing more than to drive the nanny out of her grandchildren's lives, so she has fabricated a ridiculous story to try to acheive her goals. (She sounds exactly like my sister).
You SHOULD tell her that if she cannot live peacefully within the household environment that your family regularly maintains, she needs to book herself a room at a hotel of her chooosing.
If your nanny is wonderful in every way and husband thinks she is "replaceable", I'd say you might think about replacing HIM. With a man who is orphaned ;).
LOL this sounds kinda like one of my former familys, and unfourtunatly the MIL won. everything i was doing was wrong. how i did the dishes(that i wasnt required to do) to how i did the laundry (which i did how the mother wanted me to do it). I had a lot of down time cause well the baby was 5weeks old and premature and was still sleeping a large part of the day. i didnt have to clean the house cause they had a house keeper come 3 times a week. Mom DVR'd shows for me to watch while doing laundry while the baby was sleeping. so i watched them, mil did not like that. and deleted the shows the MOM told me to watch. and i kept the house quiet and most the time sat reading. but in the end, MIL won and i lost my job. but now MIL is living with them. i wonder how mom is doing now a year and half later...
My first thought was the MIL put the tablet in her coffee. Oh man sounds like you have your hands full! I just had the pleasure of spending a few weeks with the grandparents of the children I nanny for. Even though they're sweet as can be it's tough having two more opinions about how to raise the children. I can't imagine how it would have been if they were anything like your MIL. UGH, your poor nanny! I
7:37 OP sounds like a really sweet person who cares about her children. I don't think it's necessary to be rude.
I'd have to agree with anon at 7:40; give your nanny PAID time off.
Also, a side note, have you thought about/would your husband be willing to go to couples counseling? It sounds like he's making life difficult on you. If you plan on spending the next few decades with this man, it might benefit the both of you to seek middle ground when it comes to everything-- "his" house, his mother, the way he treats his employees.
best of luck, let us know what happens!
So far, no one has mentioned the fact that the husband wanted an Israeli nanny. I'm assuming he is Israeli, so is the mom, but not the OP. I don't pretend to know anything about Israeli culture, but I am assuming it is 'normal' for mothers to be this "involved".
I am totally feeling the OPs pain, but she had to have known her husband would stick with his mom is situations like this. I don't think the Nanny put the pill in her coffee but in order to keep her marriage together, she is going to have to fire the nanny.
If she can somehow talk sense into her controlling husband (not likely), then she should give the Nanny the time off, paid, while her monster-in-law is home so she can care for the kids.
Before anything is done, she needs to speak with the nanny but since mil is so hell bent on getting her fired, I'm afraid that is what is going to happen since standing up to her husband will likely lead to HUGE problems in the marriage.
It just occured to me that if I were a nanny and I had been accused of putting a pill into my employer's mil's drink, I would quit.
It is not this common for mother's to be this involved who are of Israeli descent, but sometimes there is a reputation that men can be controlling. My male cousins, though, are not. In fact, when he and his wife invited us to stay with them indefinitely, and I was worried that we'd overstay....he said, "relax....we're Israeli". So I guess stereotypes are different even amongst same cultures.
Back to OP issue. I think they are using this problem as a way to get an Israeli nanny. Also, MIL is using this as a way to assert control she didn't have when she was raising him; now she can have control on her grandkids. There are a lot more agendas here than the nanny. It's like a couple who fight over money....it's never the money.
Lots of luck. She needs to leave if she can't follow your household rules, and husband needs to choose sides. You're not choosing between the nanny and MIL, but he is choosing between his mom and you.
Good luck.
OK, caught up now. I agree with the suggestions of giving the nanny the 2 weeks off with pay and letting MIL be completely in charge of the kids.
So, explain to her very contritely that you have come to realize you had been depriving her of her special, treasured time with her grandkids, and that to make up for your mistake, the nanny will be on vacation for the remainder of her visit and she will be completely in charge of "playing" with her grandkids, since she is clearly much more experienced and can obviously care for them much more efficiently. BUT, of course, should she run into any situation where she feels she may need some asistance, she should call your husband at work and he will come home to help her out as needed. Let's see how many cups of coffee she gets time for or how many dishes she manages to dirty for herself in the next 2 weeks!
HA! Cali mom I love the advice about Grandma calling the father if she needs help!
UpStateMom you have made some really good points.
I agree with letting the nanny off for the time when MIL is in town. I'm not sure it will solve the problem though. If the father feels like the nanny has been disrespectful to his mother I don't think the situation will change between nanny and dad once grandma leaves.
Honestly Seattlenanny, I think you're right unfortunately. And from the sounds of the husband, he's an ass and always will be, and apparently can't lift a finger to PLAY with his own children, let alone do something as mundane as helping them open their birthday presents. We can all see where he got his issues from, and unfortunately, even if the domestic boat doesn't capsize from this, it sounds like like they are on the Titanic anyway, unless the wife remains eternally tolerant and polite to him AND his vile MIL no matter WHAT the woman does to her.
Really. I am a SAHM, but my husband never monitored the hours of educational play thet kids got or what the heck I did with their birthday persents.
He sounds like one of those people who wants to raise his children as if they are science experiments and a certain "formula" will turn out perfect specimens...only he is unwilling to expend any of his own precious to actually play with them himself.
OP, go ahead and bow down to him...but his treatment of you will never improve unless you stand up and make it change. He is treating you as badly as his mother claims the nanny is treating her...but does he seem to care? He sounds like a tyrant...who sucks his thumb in private.
Well since its YOUR home too I would say tell your MIL she can stay at a hotel until her house is finished and offer to make the arrangements for her. If she's worried about the price Motel 6 offers great deals :-)
I would also be very honest with your nanny. Tell her YOU know she didn't put the pill in the coffee but that the MIL thinks she did. She might have seen the MIL doing something before she 'discovered' the pill.
I know different nationalities have different views of how a household works but it sounds like YOU need to put your foot down in YOUR home. If your nanny is great with your kids who cares what her nationality is? Good nannies are hard to come by so you don't want to lose her.
OMGosh....this is the most dysfunctional post I've read in a long time.......I am cracking up! You call this a problem? I'd love to have your problems. Here's a suggestion, take back your own life. Get rid of MIL..she's a total nutjob & a meddler..send her packing and get rid of the nanny....stay home and be a Mom. Your children need to see some healthy relationships modeled. And as for your husband....hmmm, an Israeli nanny? Tell him to open his own child's games and play with him. Novel idea. Wow. (I might think about sending him packing, too.) This is one of the weirdest posts I've ever read. Good golly. I feel very sorry for you....honestly, I do.
People, how can you get rid of a MIL? Do you really think that A) this mil should be left alone with two children or B) the hubby is going to send his precious mom to a hotel?
As for the birthday presents, I don't understand how hubby was in the wrong. A nanny is paid to work-sounds like full time and the kid seems to have got educational games for his birthday which are just sitting there. Sounds like nanny could take it up a notch.
Mil sounds like a nut but she may have a point about nanny. And OP, what is she? Shiksa?
Sounds like maybe nanny is too busy babysitting the nutjob MIL to play games with the kids.
How can you get rid of a MIL?
I'm not sure where I heard this, but I think putting part of a Senecot in her coffee might kill her.
Give the nanny the rest of the time off that your mil will be here, and inform your mil that if she is so good at everything, then she can take care of the kids all day while she's here. Then, pay your nanny, plus a bonus, for her time off. I can't stand visiting family while nannying. And, needless to say, all mother-in-laws are crazy.
I swallow a handful of senekot anytime I eat anything substantial. One isn't going to kill old mil. But if nanny is dumb enough to think it would, she shouldn't be taking care of the kids.
Wow. What a dramatic situation.
I agree to giving your nanny 2 weeks of paid vacation. Your nanny and mil need not to ever be in the same place again. Please don't fire your nanny. The MIL seems so full of it.
While reading your post, I couldn't help but to think that your MIL and husband reminded me of Trey and Bunny McDougal from Sex and the City lol.
Tell your husband you will happily tell nanny to not come back until his mom leaves, since the two of them don't get along. Then tell his mom that she will be in charge of the kids, and that if help is needed, her son will be the one to call.
Talk to nanny and explain to her that she is going to have to appologize to your husband for being "rude" to his mom. She will have to suck it up and do that to avoid him bullying her into quitting. She may even have to appologize to your MIL. At this point the ball is in Nanny's court, and if she refuses to offer a sincere sounding appology, she will likely be shoved out the door by your DH's behavior.
Don't let your husband and MIL bully you into firing a nanny you have been happy with up until now. If you fire this one, then the next nanny will also be fired when MIL decides she hates her, and the next nanny, and the next nanny....see where I am going here?
If you truly believe that nanny didn't try to "poison" your MIL, then stick up for her while keeping a united front with your DH on the topic of the need to be polite to the MIL. If you can, search MIL's stuff for a bottle of the "poison" pill. A prescription in her name would shut her up, wouldn't it?
I don't envy you. You are frankly in a pretty untenable situation, and there is no way to make everyone even mildly happy. Your Dh is willing to toss his kid's safety and security out the window to please his mom. It's clear what his priority is. I would suggest some counseling once this debacle is over.
This is an awfully rambly post, and I appologize for that. I wish you luck!
Have a look in your mother in law's stuff while she is busily occupied torturing somebody or rubbing your husband's head while he rests it in her lap.
See if she brought the senecot into your house and has it among her stuff. If she does, go ahead and let her call the police. Then have nanny press charges for the false accusation, and the police can arrest her for filing a false report.
Then urge nanny to follow through to the full extent the law wil allow her to. Perhaps she can even sue dear MIL.
While they are dragging MIL off in handcuffs, be sure to stand shoulder to shoulder with your nanny, both of you wiht your arms crossed, and sneer at her (since she seems particularly fond of that.) When they have shoved her into the car and closed the door,turn those gazes in oyur husband's direction.
He'll still defend his mother, but at least there will be proof positive that she's nuts and dangerous.
Calimom, great minds think alike! I hadn't read any responses before posting, lol!
And to those who are horrified at the thought of giving MIL the kids for 2 weeks, I believe the point is that MIL will then have to either put up or shut up, and that she will be very very very sorry that she chased nanny off by about day 3. If OP is very lucky, MIL will give up completely, DH will have to put his life on hold to take over, and nanny will come back all refreshed in 2 weeks, ready to work!
Plus, OP can then blame MIL for all the crap that the kids go through for the next 2 weeks. "I know sweetie, you were lookiong forward to XYZ, but Grandma the Hun can't/won't do that with you, When Nanny gets back you can do XYZ again!"
I really feel for OP: sounds as if she feels trapped in a bad situation. OP, I hope it works out ok, and perhaps after this is over, you can seek couples counseling with your husband. It sounds as if he really doesn't value your feelings enough. He is married to you, not his mother.
:(
and mom, you would be an amazing fan fiction writer. :) lol @ "sneer at her." :)
oops, I was 10:10 also.
Chick and Mom, great posts. No doubt MIL has that prescription stashed away in her suitcase and is so self absorbed it hasn't occurred to her that anyone would doubt her version of events. And of course the kids will be clamoring for Nanny to come back, and if MIL chickens out, OP can offer her a bonus to come back early, in addition to her vacation pay, and Nanny will likely then be very loyal to the mom for what she had to put up with from MIL.
your MIL is a bat shit crazy menace and your husband needs to grow the f*ck up. part of being married man is learning that your wife comes before your mother. your husband needs to step up and take his mother to a hotel and let her know in no uncertain terms that her shenanigans will no longer be tolerated around his family.
Original poster,
I feel for you. Your husband sounds like a total controlling dick who needs to give you, his wife, some respect.
Your MIL is a nut job, no denying that. It sounds like you love your nanny and that you two have a good relationship.
Inform the nanny of what is going on and the acusations that your MIL has made. Tell that nanny that you are on her side and that you don't believe that she did it.
Wish I could help you more, you deserve it my poor dear.
I don't think it will be that easy for the wife to stand up to her husband. He sounds very arrogant.
Can I ask what the nationality of the nanny is?
You need to bluntly ask Nanny if she put the pil in MIL's coffee. If she says no, then let it go. If she says yes, then decide what to do from there.
I am a nanny with an amazing family. Once or twice a year, one set of their parents come for a week (they both live out of state) and during that week, I am not there. They pay me and give me the week off. They let grandma and grandpa take care of the kids, because that's what they want to do.
In a previous job, I cared for a 9 month old and his grandma came to visit for a week. She was nitpicking me, questioning me, bossing me around, etc. I got very annoyed and it was not a good situation at all. Grandmas think they are older and wiser and their ways are the only ways.
Give your nanny the rest of the two weeks off, and pay her. Tell your MIL that you feel she can do a great job of taking care of her grandkids, so you gave the nanny a much needed vacation. Now let's see how much education Granny gives the boys.
If your nanny never was a problem before MIL, but all of a sudden started having an attitude, you better bet the reason is your MIL and not your nanny. Don't lose a good nanny because granny is bored and wants to come to town to stir trouble. Her abusive relationship is unfortunate, but the fact that she turns around and tries to play power trip over younger women like you or your nanny is really sad.
This could be the most sordid posting on this blog ever. We've had some crazies, it's true, but I can't recall a Mother-in-Law claiming the nanny has attempted to poison her! High drama here today for sure, but I think it's a great idea to separate the MIL from the nanny for the duration of her visit, with pay of course. Good luck!
to put it simple, trust your instincts. you know the nanny and mil best and you know who is who and what is what. since you like the nanny, you have to stick up for her to your husband. you have to be strong. it would be different if your husband had a real reason for not liking the nanny, but since he doesn't you have to make him understand. the problem will not be solved by getting a new nanny because 1) good childcare is hard to find and 2) the mil will always be this way and chances are, she will do this to the next nanny she meets!
your husband must trust your advice over his mother's because you know both these women really well and you know the truth.
I tried to poison my boss once. My boss was a real ogre. She used to drink crystal light tea all the time. She would make it in a small plastic pitcher that looked like crystal but wasn't. She had written on the pitcher "DO NOT DRINK". That was for everyone. It was just her crystal light. So one day, she had given me a hard time all morning. She was rushing around getting ready for a luncheon and I went in the medicine cabinet and found some eye drops. I squirted a good stream of eye drops into the tea. I hoped she would have some before her fancy shmancy tea. But I don't think she did. I busies myself with my duties, most of which were housekeeping. I forgot about the tea. The next day I came in and my boss was in the kitchen with her head wrapped in a towel and wearing her robe. She had her head in her hands and was still sick. Of all the days, she was so nice to me. She told me that she was up all night and she thinks she has the flu and it was bad. She told me she would keep out of my way but did say she would feel terrible if I caught it. I never did. I did bring her some saltines and a plum that afternoon and told her I hoped she felt better. After that, I never messed with anyone's drinks. I kind of felt pretty bad.
No. No. No. Do not ask the nanny if she did it! I would be so pissed if anyone ever accused me of anything as preposterous.
The nanny heckled her?
That's what she said. What does that mean? Isn't that when you yell insults at a comedian?
Anon at 1:34, That is very honest and very interesting. You remind me of how much trust we have as nannies.
OP
What's the update????
OP, you need to sit down and have a chat with your husband. The problem here is not your nanny or your MIL but your marriage.
Any married person knows that a husband and wife are a team and need to stand together. A husband should not be choosing his mother over his wife. The two of you should be discussing the situation and making decisions together, mil aside.
Take a deep breath and take a look at your life. I think you need to assess more than your nanny situation.
Good luck...
1:34,
You have got to be kidding. You realize that you have a problem, do you not?
It always amazes me when I read about people more screwed up than I am. Like, you'd think they wouldn't be out there, but they just keep popping up. :(
I think your nanny has been damaged way too much by this. Help her find a new job,compensate her well for those nightmare weeks and get a new husband.
OP, you have my total sympathy. I think it would help to have your husband's back- after all, he married you, right? - so you should try to get that.
Be supportive of him. He probably does not want to confront his mother, so you have to play it smooth.
If you are confrontational, he will feel he has to stick up for his mother. I think you need to confuse your MIL. Straight talk and honest dealings will not get you anywhere with her. So show a lot of concern for here on the outward, but do not let her get away with anything. Pretend to take the police suggestion seriously (very likely bluff on her side). Open indirect lines of attack: "How wonderful your mom is with the kids, but I am afraid this trip to whatever was too much for her etc...".
I also think the nanny should help you out.
You need to sit down with her, find out exactly what your MIL did or said to her and work out a plan together. I am not sure paid leave is such a good idea, because it will make your MIL feel like she has won. I also think your nanny needs to suck it up and pick the MIL's dishes and hear all the nasty comments. After all, her job is on the line.
Good luck to you, and please update us.
Poor nanny! If I were her I would quit! Visiting relatives when you are a nanny are difficult at the least and a nightmare at the most. I feel for you O.P., also. I believe that your cultural situation makes it impossible to confront your mother-in-law- or your husband. I would give the nanny paid time off and help her to find another job and let your mother-in-law take care of the kids until it is time for her to leave. Or if you are uncomfortable with leaving her, you take vacation time off until she leaves.
There is no solution to this problem. Unless you talk to the person who watches her child on Monday and offer her more childcare services for the next two weeks, providing it is at her house. Then speak to the nanny and tell her you are going to pay her x instead of x (more) to watch both children at X's house and MIL will take care of the children at the other times, for example, have the nanny work 12-6 or something. I don't think giving the nanny all the time off is a good bet. I don't think that parents can just take time off work. Mil is the one with money in the bank, these people may be living paycheck to paycheck. Not everyone with a nanny has a ton of money!
So ur nanny tried to poison ur mil w/ a laxative?? I dont think that will work, just put her in the bathroom for awhile...
I think you should relate the story to the nanny at at time when you can be alone with her. You will know by her reaction if she did anything. I very much doubt it has anything to do with her, she is too busy keeping track of the children ans so far you have a good relationship with her. If our MIL is such a pain with the nanny around I would give the nanny some paid vacation time when she is around. I will say again it seems pretty silly for a busy nanny to bother with a very immature trick such as this.
OP, this is a sad story. Unlike many of the commenters, I think it's quite possible that the nanny did put the senokot into your MIL's coffee. The nanny could have done this. I'm not sure why most people are so certain the nanny could not or would not have done it. The MIL was annoying her (and you!) to no end.
I think the most important thing is for you and your husband to have some alone time to reconnect, and hopefully get on the same page. You both need to understand each other's sides here. He should try to understand how annoying his mother can be, and you can try to understand how his mother must feel around the nanny who has been less than welcoming toward her. (You describe how she is not warm or friendly to people other than you and your two children.) Surely this can make things difficult for your mother in law, who may already feel "out of the loop" or a "third wheel" and who probably wants to be more a part of things than she is. Your mother in law is horrendous but unfortunately she is a part of your family and she is the grandma to your children. So any appropriate solution to this problem has to bear that fact in mind.
Believe me, I have a terrible mother in law, way worse than yours. She is unbelievable. So I really feel for you.
The best solution, however temporary, is to immediately give nanny paid vacation while MIL is here, and have MIL take care of the kids (assuming this is agreeable to MIL and hubby). Thank nanny profusely and try to give her an extyra cash bonus to compensate her for having to deal with MIL's bullsh** thus far. Tell nanny how excited you are for her day of return, that you don't want to lose her, and can't wait for MIL to be gone and for nanny to return to her duties.
I do think you should also ask nanny about the pill, and/or tell her the story about a pill being found. Get her reaction, at the very least, out of respect for MIL. It is possible that she did it and it would behoove you to find out if you can.
You have marital problems. Not the sort to be ignored. Your husband is more wedded to his mother than to you and were it me, I'd take the nanny and the kids on outing and leave the MIL in the house by herself.
If you don't like your MIL imagine how your children feel? If your children like your MIL imagine her imprint on their very impressionable attitudes.
The Nanny is fine but you married a child and his mother.
Fix it or find ways to avoid their presence.
Give nanny the time off, and hand the kids over to Granny.
Tell your husband to step up. Those educational games should have been opened and played with WITH THE PARENTS! He owes the nanny an apology for his rudeness.
The nanny didn't clean up after MIL. Explain to him the difference between a nanny and a maid.
And yes, it is your house too.
I think your husband is a bigger problem than his mother, who will soon be gone. Too bad you can't fire him!
Get a marriage counselor. The problem here is not your MIL.
I assume that 1:34 just wrote that for comedic value, as eye drops are nothing much beyond salt water and a few drops in a pitcher probably wouldn't even cause an upset stomach. But ROFLMAO!!!!! It reminded me of that move 9 To 5, where they accidentally put rat poison in the boss's coffee instead of "skinny n' sweet" or whatever it was called.
And for Christ sake, PLEASE don't ask your trusted nanny if she put a pill in the old hag's coffee, unless you want her to quit on the spot. If she did, do you REALLY think she'd tell you, or that you could surmise by her reaction that she did? (IMO, if she did, it was completely justified!!) And if she didn't, OF COURSE she would take great offense and you'd be watching her back as she walks away with her head held high, leaving you to mop your tears off the kitchen floor along with your MIL's spit as she laughs her guts out.
i think it was the nanny in the kitchen with a teaspoon- -
1:34 you are one sick twisted person. You don't deserve to work around ANY human let alone a child. I don't care how mad you are are your boss you do not try to poison them.
Do you have no morals?
Did your parents not teach you right from wrong?
YOU are whats wrong with society.
http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/visine.asp
What you did could actually kill someone. I hope you live with the guilt of what you did for the rest of your life and remember that old saying what goes around comes around.
I am the OP of this post.
I have not spoken to the nanny since Friday afternoon and I will not see her until Monday morning. I am planning to meet her train in the morning and give her a ride here so that we have a moment alone. I like the idea that was suggested about talking to the mother of the person who "shares" the Nanny's services on Monday but I don't want to involve her. I like the idea of having the nanny come in just in the afternoon for the next two weeks. This would give nanny the benefit of a half day in general, which is always nice, but also a shorter amount of time to deal with MIL and because MIL would know that she was responsible for the children until when nanny arrived, she would have to really be on. I think this could wear her out and she might stay out of Nanny's hair. In fact, I think she might need a break from the children.
I can't think of this or plan anything without talking to the nanny first. If the plans change, I cannot let her know why plans have changed.
After typing out what I realized was a very long post, I realized how upset I was personally about this. I wasn't just upset at MIL or about the problems with the nanny but that none of this would be going on if husband had stood up to his mother. When my mother comes to visit, I have told her, "This is what nanny does. This is what nanny likes. This schedule works for the children. She's a really nice person but I think she would appreciate it if you recognized that she has a routine". Or words to that affect.
So, my mother met the nanny and treated her with respect, not just because of what I asked her but because in asking her that I had demonstrated my confidence in the nanny. And because my Mother treated her with respect, they got along fantastically. My mother is not without her problems, I don't imagine she was pure joy and I don't expect his mother to be either.
I've drifted, it seems. I chose the nanny (who is from Trinidad) after interviewing in person about 14 nannies. Two of the nannies were Israeli. I chose the nanny I liked best after interviewing her, checking her references and seeing her with my children. This isn't just about not getting an Israeli nanny, it's about telling me, the children's mother that I made a poor choice for them.
If I let myself think about it, I'd probably realize I've had it.
I'm hoping things will go smoothly tomorrow.
Thank you for listening.
Actually, I did something not too nice to my former employers. I hated them the way they treated me. But at the time I needed to work.
I would take their toothbrush and scrub the inside of the toilet with it. Then rinse it and put it back in the cup holder. They never caught on.
I only did that a couple of times. And some other things.
they say confession is good for the soul and since 1:34 and the above OPPS both seem remorseful about what they did and have owned up to it, let's give them the bene of the doubt and appreciate the fact they know they did wrong i did a lot of things to my school principal with my pal, linda g. oh, what trouble we could have gotten into, although we did nothing to cause physical harm!
Tetrahydrozoline is an ingrediant in visine that is available without a prescription. It does not cause medically proven diarrhea but it does lead to:
Lowering your body temperature to dangerous levels
Trouble breathing, or halting it completely.
Blurring vision
Nausea and vomiting
Elevating than dropping blood pressure
Causing seizures and tremors
Sending the ingestor into a coma.
Again, not all eye drops are the same but there is a reason some of them carry a poison control warning for a reason....
I do not have much to say on anything except the Nanny and the whole pill incident. You need to talk to the nanny about it and tell her you trust her and you know she did not put the pill in the coffee. If she gets accused by the nanny and/or your husband and feels no one believes her, she is going to be hurt very deeply. Talk to you asap. She needs to know she has someone on her side here.
I meant to say if she gets accused by the MIL, not the nanny. Sorry for the typo!
Relating to 1:34...I read this report recently. I had no idea that eye drops could cause such serious damage. Oh, and you're sick.
http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/news/2008/may/15/teacher-reportedly-poisoned/
Op how long have you lived with a controlling man. He is shades of his father. You were not her choice for a wife and let me tell you that is NOT going to change and sooner or later she is going to ruin this marriage if what you have is called a marriage.
I would call the cops and let them find out that the MIL has a jar of those pills herself! Then the nanny should sue her ass for defamation of character and accusing her of trying to kill her.
There is a reason your MIL does not want that nanny in the house while she is there. She wants to have her sons ear to make YOU look like an unfit mother and try to get him to leave you.
I would also put him in his place that house is NOT his, it is community property. You work and contribute to the household.
Why are you letting him run you like an Isralie slave? You live in AMerica.
I would tell him to get his mother out of there and stop her from interfering with your lives and household or you are taking the kids and leaving since he is now acting like his father.
Your MIL is poison.
I would go thru her things and see if she has a bottle or a prescription for those pills and hand them over to your lord and master and see what he has to say.
Your MIL may have been abused by maybe I can see why now.
OP, I think what I hear you saying in you latest post is that you are dealing with a passive aggressive husband and you are just about at the end of your rope?
Passive aggressive is almost worse to deal with than yelling because you don't even really have anything to "fight back" against. It is very emotionally draining.
I was thinking about you again this morning (your post is so sad) and looking back at all of the couples I have known where the husband runs all over the wife, and is simply too difficult to defy, so that the woman is forever trying to please him, if only for the sake of keeping the peace (which she never can completely accomplish, no matter how hard she tries) and always subject to his scrutiny, control and disdain. Do one thing just the way he likes? He will find another fault you need to work on. You will never be good enough for him. And in case he has any doubts, his mommy will reassure him that he is, in fact, superior to you and could have done better.
I have a lot of friends who have been married a long time, and here's how that scenario seems to play out in the long run: What you're doing now may work when you're young and always optimistic that things will get better. But after years and years you are either going to get stronger and realize that you cannot live with his crap and it will be too late because you will be at such a point of resentment that you practically hate him....or you are going to be so beaten down emotionally that you will be nothing more than a shell of your former self with barely even the will to fight back. And your youth will be gone. And the mama's boys...that situation only gets worse and worse over time. Mama gets her clutches in, realizes she has successfully prevented her baby from cutting those apron strings and needs to keep on proving it to herself and everybody elses with an ever escalating series of hurtful stunts played against the wife.
You need to get counseling with him right away, because from what you describe, you are on the fast train to disaster.
You husband may resist the idea. Go without him if he does. If you get stronger and learn where to draw some REASONABLE boundaries then he'll have to change too.
3:50,
just a word of caution, you should be very careful what you write on this board because it doesn't go unnoticed. you never know who is reading what you write and may recognize you.
should my old school principal recognize me on here, i'd be really shocked, since he's dead, but good advice to heed none the less.
Exactly my point, and this goes out to all those nosy busy bodies that call themselves moms, watch what you write, you can still be recognised, especially the idiots that post photos
Wow, this post will definately go down on the books as the most dramatic. It almost reads like a Soap Opera.
OP
As a few others have said before me, I really hope nothing is said to this Nanny about poisoning Grandma .... you know darn well she's just the manipulative, cunning, scheming type to have done this herself. And to actually be able to get the pill identified after swirling in a cup of hot coffee? .... sounds a little too astounding to me.
Grandma will be leaving soon, so thank God for small favors. But you still have a demanding, controlling Husband and your favorite Nanny to deal with.
Nanny should be easy ... you're the Employer, and you should probably sit her down and speak with her about showing your Husband just a little more respect. Only because this will make her life easier ....
but I wouldn't let Hubby off the hook just yet. He's the one that is the major problem.
You need to find a way of smoothing things over with him. It's not fair if you have a Nanny that seems to be doing her job, and the kids love her, and the old man is treating her like crap.
Try to keep everyone in their neutral corners until MIL leaves, then come out with the gloves on and take care of business with your Nanny and Husband.
I read this at work alongside my coworker and we both agreed that your MIL is insane and put the pill in her own coffee. If your husband can't figure that out he is as crazy as she is. Some Norman Bates stuff going on in your house.
OP, your marriage sounds like my parents. Please, for your children's sake, get marriage counseling before they get any older. It is a very damaging for them to see their father treat their mother like this.
Hellcat, no joke! I guess our minds think alike because Norman Bates had also crossed my mind.
"Mother!!"
How did this become YOUR problem. If husband and MIL have a problem with the nanny; let them fire her. But YOU'RE not hiring a new nanny, nor are you taking time off of work while you're without a nanny. It's their problem!!!!! BTW, your husband and MIL are playing out some version of the crap that went on in their home when your husband was a kid...and it shouldn't be your problem!!!!!!
1:34 You stupid ass. You can't poison someone with EYE DROPS. Saline solution is about all that is in there. If you really want to poison someone you will have to do better than that!
Tell you mother in law to get her big fat ass to a hotel and to stop buttin' in her big mouth where it ain't needed. BTW, $700,000 ain't much to retire on these days...but she shouldn't be spongin off you...and messin with you nanny...
Tell you mother in law to get her big fat ass to a hotel and to stop buttin' in her big mouth where it ain't needed. BTW, $700,000 ain't much to retire on these days...but she shouldn't be spongin off you...and messin with you nanny...
Visine is poisonous:
http://www.local10.com/news/6274451/detail.html
Eyedrops contain tetrahydrozoline, which can be highly toxic if ingested.
The pharmacist can't determine that 1/3 of an already dissolved pill is Seanokot. He would have to send it out to a lab to determine what it is. He's just guessing!
The pharmacist can't determine that 1/3 of an already dissolved pill is Seanokot. He would have to send it out to a lab to determine what it is. He's just guessing!
I'm a flight attendant. When I started flying 15 years ago, putting Visine in mean passengers' drinks to cause diarrhea was a common practice among some of the nastier girls, according to galley gossip. From what I gathered, when it became common knowledge, the offending ingredient was taken out of the eye drops.
My sympathy to you OP, you are in a tough situation. I can recall with horror some of the hard times visiting family members have given me in what were otherwise perfectly lovely job situations. It takes a mighty big person to endure the visiting family abuse, and I don't blame your nanny for slacking off on her tasks - especially where related to your MIL - in truth, she is not there to clean up after her, but to watch the children. I do not, however, think that she put anything in MIL's coffee. I think MIL did that herself. The situation has become very toxic, and I agree with a lot of the other posts that you give your nanny paid time off and let MIL take charge of the children during her visit. If she is so sure that she can do it better, let her prove it! She might even come to appreciate the nanny after having to do her job for a couple of days.
As for your relationship with your husband and his relationship with your nanny, wait until MIL leaves and the situation has cleared and then maybe the three of you can sit down and have a chat. He can voice any problems he has, you can praise the nanny, she can address any gripes.
Good employees are gold - let your husband know that.
And just for fun, here are some of the monster family members I have encountered during my tenure as a nanny:
The SIL who would not stop using my laptop, even after I unplugged it, turned it off and put it in my bag. (I did a lot of administration work for the family)
The same SIL who asked to borrow my cellphone (and car) and then made TEN long distance phone calls. She did not ask of my cell phone plan, minutes, etc. Just dialed away and chattted endlessly.
The Grandmother who followed me around the house commenting on my every move. When she moved in full time I had to quit that job.
The Aunt who drove me INSANE by constantly questioning every move I made, from what I was feeding the children to what time I was putting them down for their naps. EVERY LITTLE THING. I went home dizzy during her visits.
Note: Auntie was not married nor had children of her own, or had any experience with them.
Your MIL sounds like a really hard peron to get along with in the best of circumstances. Good Luck!!
ooh - I forgot one - the Grandmother of the family I nannied for who had a preemie. She would stand over me while I fed said preemie with a look of disgust muttering, "You're feeding that baby too much!"
Feeding schedule: Determined by the child's doctor and greatly discussed by the Mother and myself - which was the better formula to use, times of feedings duly noted in a baby journal - but to the Grandmother? All wrong!
Wow! What a piece of work! Clearly, most everyone agrees your MIL is nuts and your husband is a jack ass. You have a couple of choices. Let your nanny have some time off and let that crazy woman be the grandmother she thinks she is (although I'm not sure I would trust her with my children)
Or, stand up to both your MIL and Husband and offer they go get a room together!
He is Your Husband, and acts like you are the offending party, not his crazy mother. What is wrong with him? He should be standing up for you, not her! When he gets old and grey and can't go to the bathroom by himself, who is going to be caring for him? Your MIL? From her grave?
Your nanny is not the problem and under this kind of stress, no decisions about her employment should be made. Wait until that wench leaves, then review what could have been different.
Having a good, loving nanny is hard to come by.. I've been through a few myself. It is your home too. You can train her to engage in the learning aspects of your children's lives. But recreating bonds takes a lot more time and effort. Who is to say the next one will be any better, anyway?
Your husband needs to sort out his priorities and leave the nanny for you to manage and kick that old woman to the curb! She is rude, selfish and a poison to your marriage.
I must work with REALLY great families because I have NEVER (in 12 years) had ANY problems with them. However, I do interview the family as much (if not more) then they do me.
11:23 I think you've got someting! They ARE palying out the old roles from his childhood.
Mean monster (nanny/dad) is abusing poor sweet mommy and she is whining to her son to save her. He didn't save her when he was a child, but he will darn sure do it now. Now is his chance to make that horrible (I'm being sarcastic) nanny to pay for all the mean things daddy did to mommy so son can finally feel good about coming to his mommy's rescue.
Who knows? maybe dad wasn't even that bad. Maybe mom is one of thsoe people who is a perpetual victim, claiming everybody is out to get her.
Maybe she has been playing this game with her son about everybody all of his life, even when he was far to young to do anything about it...leavig him feeling weak, powerless and emasculated. Maybe he feels strong now by asserting his power over you.
Get help. This is not healthy in any possible direction.
I hate to say this but I have a similar MIL - who I had to eventually put in her place. You may have to do that she is destroying your relationship with your nanny and your husband. She obviously lies and is malicious. Keep the nanny, good ones are too hard to find and stand up for yourself! They are YOUR children not hers!! Your MIL obviously has it out for you, don't let her take control (or your husband either for that matter, what kind of comment is "my house", aren't you in a marriage?)
I would like to know if anyone knows of resources such as books, websites, etc. for dealing with a very toxic mother in law, and generally toxic in laws (sister in law, father in law, brother in law). They are so vile. They've done so much to hurt my husband (their son). I feel I am dealing with it well, but would really welcome knowing about resources that can help me deal with this. Thank you for your suggestions.
op..I get it!
The women who are telling you to demand your husband grow a pr and stand up to MIL do not get it.
I live in a very traditional household.
Remember Ricky & Lucy?? That is me and my husband.
My MIL called our honeymoon suite at 1am..(thank God I had all calls held at the front desk)
she then beat down the door of our Honeymoon suite at 5 am to kiss her dear son good bye before catching her plane back home..I jumped up got dressed and rushed to the door,afterall, nobody would bang on our door like that unless it was an emergency..right?
I open the door. She says"oh,Sarah, you didn't have to get dressed"
My reply"uh yes I did Irene,it's my honeymoon and I was but naked"
she is a crazy,mean woman with a sick infatuation of her son.She then called his cell phone 8 times the next day. I finally turned it off and hid it in a drawer for the remainder of our honeymoon.(which btw he was fine with)
My husband did not realize this until we married and not only I but others pointed it out.
There is no best way to deal with this.
Many cultures are funny when it comes to sons and mothers. The mother is revered no matter what kind of woman/mom she is and it is a sign of disrepect to question her,demand anything of her or God forbid, tell her no.
Your husband sounds much like mine except, my husband cannot wait to get down on the floor and play with the kids. He never would have expected anyone else to open our childs gifts but us. Anyhow, I do not think your husband is any of the names that he has been called on the previous posts, I think he is simply a man of a different culture and he was not raised to leave and cleave as we are taught in our society.
I myself am married to a Mexican Man and he is very much the ruler in our home too. He loves us and takes fabulous care of us but every once in a while he puts his foot down. I tease him and tell him "now only if I could get you to do that with your mom"
Your nanny sounds fabulous and I hate to see you lose her. But you married your husband for better or worse(MIL being the worse part) and you need to stand united.
My suggestion, make the best of it.The senecot thing probably was your MIL. Reality is..no one is going to press charges..that is just ridiculous.Ask MIL to watch the kids a few days a week to accomodate her need to be needed. Give the nanny a few days off..paid and hopefull that will cut down on their time together.
After MIL goes home..talk to your husband..once again..explain that perhaps in the future when grandma comes to visit it should be a shorter period of time or, arrange to take some time off work so you can stay home while she is there. Give the nanny that time off.
MIL is going no-where and your husband will always find excuses for her..If you want to make the marriage work and situations like this to work, find a happy medium..as hard as that may be.
And to all the women asking"who's house is it anyhow"..some of us are old fashioned ..some of us live a traditional lifestyle and we knew we were marrying strong men.For me this was a great decision and I love the lifestyle I lead.Each woman is strong in her own way..she knows what she wants and what she looks for in a man and every woman is different. It does not make her less of a women or her husband a dick or thumb sucking baby!
Many woman wear the pants in their households. I have told my husband several times "that his sister in law needs to open her purse and give his brother his balls back"
Some women want to be married to soft men..some don't.
This is for the person who wants books and website forum for dealing with a difficult mils, please google "mil stories" (will lead to very helpful website) and the book "Toxic Inlaws". Good luck, OP!
Here's the trick to getting alone with anyone in the world--including a toxic mother-in-law:
1) First, remember that your opinion about yourself is the ONLY one that matters--no one else's does.
2) In any interaction you have, your goal is to come across as a "non-threat" and make the other person feel good about themselves--this includes your mother-in-law.
3) When someone says something that bothers you--remember, those are only words, and they truly don't account for anything, unless you decide to give those words value. If you discount them in your own mind--those words are worthless!
4) You can either choose when someone says something that bothers you to ignore them, give a non-response like Hmmmmm...or that's something to think about. If the other person is relentless, you can say something like "I hear you think I'm feeding my child too much, but that's my decision--and we're going to leave it at that." Period...end of story.
And remember...it's always your choice to JUST NOT CARE. People can say whatever stupid thing comes off the top of their brain...but you can just let those words float out there. You don't have to catch them!
This is the OP again. I met the nanny this morning and we sat in the parking lot of the train station so I could explain to her what was going on. She was very quite. I reassured her that I was not angry with her, I was upset at the situation. I repeated to her that I didn't believe my mother-in-law's accusations. The nanny remained quiet. She then burst into tears and through sobbing she told me that she did do it.
This was not what I was expecting. I asked her exactly what she did. She told me put 3 laxatives from her purse and put them in MIL's coffee and stirred it up. I asked where she got them. She told me that she carries them with her in her tote bag. I ask her what kind and she goes in to her bag and produces a bottle. They are not Senekot but a foreign laxative made in Thailand. The bottle is called Sidolax.
I think I was silent for five minutes. I am completely disappointed of course. I decided that I didn't want to share that information with MIL, so I sent the nanny home. I put her back on a train and I told her not to mention this to anyone. I further advised her I was going to advise my husband that nanny was upset when I told her what was going on. I suggested to the nanny that she not return to the home with the bottle.
The nanny is going to come back tomorrow at 1PM and everyday thereafter. I have been home all day. As an added bonus to missing work and finding out MIL wasn't lying, I also have the neighbor's child tearing around the house all afternoon. Mil is sitting and reading magazines, but out of the corner of her eyes, I see her studying me and my interaction with the children.
She hasn't said anything negative to me. I explained to mil that the nanny was upset and the new plan. I reaffirmed to MIL that we are happy to have her here and the children love doing things with her. I then suggested that the nanny not come in until afternoon to give MIL some space with the children and asked her what she thought. I think MIL appreciated me asking for her input. Nevermind, that it was already shceduled.
MIL did start to get angry when talking about the nanny. She was very insisten that the nanny did do something to her coffee. I told MIL that I just couldn't see it and asked her to please give the nanny the benefit of the doubt so that her time with us wasn't marred by ugliness. She suggested that I might return home and find her dead and asked what I would do at that point. I responded, "That isn't going to happen.". I told her that nanny thought she got off on the wrong foot with MIL and apologized to me. That isn't entirely true, but I'm guessing that the nanny is going to be nicer to MIL tomorrow.
I didn't sleep much this weekend. I find that I am exhausted, just depleted.
I am so sorry you have to go through this! You definently need to tell the MIL and the hubby to watch the kids while you go on a spa vacation! I am sure you are going to be blasted by some people on here for allowed the nanny to come back into your home after trying to "poison" your MIL. Though I do have chuckle a bit. Karma is a bitch. lol.
Well OP, I had hoped your nanny hadn't put something in the coffee.
At least she was honest with you but she needs to be fired. What she did was 100% wrong no matter what the MIL said to her. If you don't want the MIL or your husband to know then tell them the Nanny couldn't handle the situation and quit.
WHOA! I totally didn't see that coming!! I really thought your MIL was setting this up!
I don't even know what to say about this! Yes, your MIL is certifiably nuts, but for your nanny to slip ANY sort of meds into her drink is TOTALLY not okay. The thing is, your nanny doesn't know if your MIL is allergic to anything, and especially if these are foreign pills, what is exactly in them. I'd suggest at this point you letting your nanny go. But do it soon and with a nice severance since she's been fine up to this point. Don't make her suffer through the next few weeks with your MIL.
That is too bad that the MIL wore her down to the point of her slipping pills into her drink. Just shows that no matter how well we think we know people, one never knows for sure...I agree with the above poster. Give her a nice severance package, especially like it sounds like your MIL was a royal pain the ass, and she was so good with your children. But I wouldnt give the MIL the satisfaction of knowing that she drove out "the help."
I wouldnt give her any extra pay! Yes, the MIL probably had it coming to her, but that doesnt give the nanny the right to do as she pleases, either! I honestly would have a hard time trusting her after this, knowing full well that she was capable of something if she was angry enough. Give her the money that she earned the past few weeks, and then fire her!
give your nanny paid time off while the psycho mil is there so that the psycho mil can feel good about herself. the nanny will stay sane, the husband can coddle his mil a little more and you won't be in the middle of it all.
So crazy how all of you thought she didn't do it and she did!
Wow, i think you handled it pretty well except for the part where you want her to return. I think you secretly are not too upset about your nanny drugging your MIL and you know what lady, i don't blame you.
But and BIG but, you need to remember that you need a woman in your house that can keep her head clear in moments of distress. God forbid your miserable husband ends up dead because he's a flaming a-hole to her! Or your kid becomes a brat.
I suggest you sit her down, apologize for failing to provide her with a better environment to work in. Tell her you need to let her go and if she's upset (as in angry) I suggest you remind her that she could go to jail for what she attempted to succeed in. But because of the sensitivity of the situation that you will cut her slack and let her go "as if she resigned" after all you can't give your husband and mother in law the pleasure.
You know what I would say? Nanny, if you are ever in such a situation again, tylenol works loads better. :P OK OK i teaze but im sure you all where thinking it! God damn the woman was a monster!
I no longer trust this post.
I think it is a fake.
Possibly by someone testing interest in such a situation for a book or some sort of documentation.
What kind of mother would allow a nanny who admitted to slipping pills into her MIL's coffee, return to watch her children?
This has to be a fake post.
OP, if the post above was really from you and not someone else trying to chum the waters, you now have a MUCH bigger problem than you did before.
You've lied to your MIL and to your DH. Lies ALWAYS come out. When they find out you lied to them to protect nanny, all hell will break loose.
No matter how horrid MIL is, she is family, and IMO, family loyalty comes before loyalty to a nanny. You may fully sympathize with nanny, you may even secretly feel some glee that MIL got hers back, but is that pleasure worth your marriage and possibly custody of your kids?
IMO, IF this post is true, OP, you need to fire nanny once MIL is gone. Let her go with a neutral LOR and no severance. Why no severance? Because it will be hard to justify severance when you tell your DH the modified truth.
You will have to lie to DH again, and say nanny "just" confessed to you that she did slip MIL some pills. You will have to bite your tounge while DH and MIL gloat, and you may even have to hire a nanny based more on nationality than on capability.
That all sucks. It's not fair, and I would guess you'll eventually be angry with nanny for putting you in this situation. It's horrid to have no trust in the person who cares for your children. And you can't trust her to NOT do something to you, DH, or your kids if any of you piss her off sufficiently.
I still think marital counseling is important. I hope you can get through this without any further damage to your family relationships.
Wow. How could you ever trust your Nanny again?
What if your Husband keeps going at her? What if she has a bad day, and your kid starts giving her a hard time?
Will she dump some Benedryl in your kids Kool-aid?
Will she spike your Husbands tea with a tranq?
She has proven herself dangerous ... I don't care that it was a laxative. What if your MIL had a bad allergic reaction?
I'm sorry, this is inexcusable, and she needs to be let go now.
..... and this is what I get for giving this Nanny the benefit of the doubt because MIL's have a bad rap.
This'll teach me next time to keep an open mind.
>> IF any of this was true <<
OP for the third time.
Testing an idea for a book? I did not want to go back and tell MIL what the nanny did? I did not want nanny to get in any sort of trouble. I suppose some of you are correct that perhaps the nanny revealed character that I should not be comfortable with. I don't think she would ever do it again. As I stated, she burst in to tears and apologized. I believe the word to describe her as I put her back on the train was petrified.
If this was a normal problem, I could take it to someone at work. It isn't. But if it were unreal, I could rewing to before Friday. I can't.
Well, is there some reason you really don't want to let her go? Many people here have suggested for you to let her go and just tell your husband and MIL that she quit. Why do you seem so reluctant to do that? It seems like if you keep the nanny, you are going to have a continous burdon on your shoulders, even after the MIL leaves. After all, your husband is always going to feel like she is not the right one. I know it is very hard to let someone go that you have gotten used to and care for. But in the end, I think it is going to relieve your stress. Husband will be releived and your marriage will have less of a strain. Then you and him can both select the next nanny together. That way he can't complain about the next one.
OP you sound really sincere and sweet. I hope you find some peace out of this situation soon. I agree with the poster that said you need a spa day!
Sweetie,
Husband and MIL aside, you're not thinking clearly--you're now trusting a woman who put three laxatives in your mother-in-law's coffee with your children--your most precious loved ones. No matter how remorseful the nanny was, think about that. She has proven that if pissed off enough, she has the ability to not only think of doing something that demonstrates poor judgement--but actually following through on it. So, if she's mad at you for some future instance in which you have to call her on something--she might do something similar to you, your husband, or even worse--to your children. I know you love the nanny, and that you trust her--but as a mommy, you need to let her go. And you need to tell your husband the whole truth. He deserves to know who is caring for his children--because they are HIS children, not just yours. Truly, could you live with yourself if she does something to your children--and you never told your husband what really happened with the laxatives in the coffee. PLUS, you're aiding and abetting a criminal (no matter how small the offense is)--by telling the nanny to get rid of the "evidence." If you're found out to be doing that, you could be in serious trouble. You're very lucky that your MIL detected the laxatives and poured out the coffee. She could have had a real case of the runs...perhaps become dehydrated...and end up in the hospital. That's serious! Plus, if your husband ever finds out that you've hid this whole thing from him (and he conceivably could, from the nanny herself)--he is going to have a very hard time forgiving you. This is his mommy we're talking about--who the nanny tried to make ill with laxatives. Plus, these are his precious children that you're putting in harm's way and lying to him to boot. Think about it. If you don't tell your husband what happened, the nanny has one up on you...if she gets upset with you for ANY reason, she could tell your husband EVERYTHING!!!!!! You're playing with fire! You need to talk to your husband and let the nanny go. It's the right thing to do--now, go do it.
i am casting my vite for *this post it fake as a cubic zirconia*
:/
if it's not, well this entire family is a bunch of freaks. dad is a jackhole, MIL is crazy, and poster is crazy for not firing the nanny on the spot and for lying to everyone else.
i'm giving this one the big: @@.
LindaLou, I think you just summed up my thoughts. The new details are just a bit too sensational to NOT be fishy. I dunno, I'm just very skeptical of this one now.
Well, at least, you know what to do now. Fire the nanny. Brace yourself for the MIL. Improve communication with husband. And most important, keep your sanity.
Your Husband was clearly right. Maybe his instincts were better than yours.
I can't believe you would keep a nanny on that had the propensity to do such a thing.
Do you understand how serious this is?! She poisoned your MIL!
Yeah, so it wasn't a stronger drug, but so what? I can't fathom the type of person that would DO something like this.
I can't believe you hate your MIL, more than you love your family ... because that is clearly what you're demonstrating.
You are probably glad to some extent .... Boy, she gave it to your MIL good, huh? And you love it. Nevermind that she could do this to your husband next, or even your kids!
And you're going to keep her on??
Just a quick story for OP:
I want you to realize how serious this could've been.
A couple of years ago, I was dating a guy, he is now my best friend.
One night, he stood me up.
When he didn't show up, I got upset like a dummy, and cried about it to my mom and best friend.
Fast forward a few nights later. My mom invites this guy to dinner. I'm happy, and impressed by her kindness.
Everything goes well. My mom (and my best friend, too) helped prepare a fantastic dinner.
Dessert was spectacular, too. I sure would've liked some, but everyone knew I was trying to lose a few pounds.
The next day, this neat guy calls. He says he is very sick. I feel bad for him. I thought maybe it was the flu. I went over and nursed him back to health.
A couple of days later, I'm telling my best friend, just in passing, how sick my poor friend had gotton. She busts out laughing.
I ask her what the hell was so funny? She says that the dessert they made him ..... had chocolate laxative shavings all over it. She says, "It looked real, didn't it?"
I go nutso on her. How could you do such a thing?
She says, "It was your mom's idea. We wanted to get back at him for standing you up".
I go straight to my mom and go nutso on her. "What if I had had some of that dessert?" ....
Mom says, "We knew you wouldn't touch it because you were on a diet" .... omg.
I then told them how he was up all day and night sick as a dog. Cramps, diarrhea, sweating .... the whole bit.
It took a long time to really forgive them for this.
They felt really bad.
Especially since they found out that the reason my guy friend didn't show up was because one of his close friends had been in a car accident.
Op. Your making a big mistake keeping this nanny.
OP
So....what now?? what did you do?
I think she said she plans on keeping the nanny.
In the meantime, her Husband is very unhappy, and MIL is pissed. The kids are surely confused, because there's no way they don't know that there's tension between all of the adults.
This must be one hell of a nanny for OP to want to keep her on after having caused so much discord.
........ Or, OP is just so lonely, isn't getting what she needs from her Husband, and relates better with the nanny? And this is why the nanny is staying?
Either way, it isn't safe to have this person in the home.
Please tell us OP -
why is it worth keeping her after so much has happened? Don't you think if you were to let her go, you would mend a lot of fences, especially with your Husband?
Your husband has an Oedipus complex concerning his mother. He secretly longs for sexual relations with her, and he resents his father out of the jealousy that he felt. Did your father ever accidentally or intentionally viewed his parents having sexual relations?
I find it disturbing that you and your husband seem so distant from your children.
It's also troubling how your MIL seems to resent you, and babies her grown son. Did she also have sexual thoughts about her son?
Your family is very troubled, and I feel sad for your children.
OP,
I have read your update and I strongly suggest you let this nanny go.
What if she grows upset with your children and decides to poisen them? Please, OP, for the sake of your family. Listen to reason. You are dealing with an obviously disturbed wacko. Just thank your lucky stars she is an "honest" wacko and told you the truth.
Let. Her. Go. Now.
Please.
JANE
The presumption on this blog is that what is reported is true. Since the purpose of the blog is to alert parents to nanny sightings--both positive and negative. Therefore, you have to assume that in this thread, you have evidence of a criminal confession and a confession from someone who is admitting to knowing about a crime and helping to conceal evidence. I would think that as the owner of the blog you are under an obligation to report this to the police.
While I find it unlikely that nanny would ever hurt the children, I think there is a decent possibility that she would act in a way you wouldn't approve in front of the children. For example, someone intentionally cuts her place in line in the supermarket...might she respond by puncturing their oj container with a key while they're not looking? Random example I know, but my point is your children are going to witness her actions and learn from them.
1:45,
I seriously doubt Jane is under that obligation.
Your post makes no sense. Assumptions are not evidence.
Nice try, crazy-maker.
Keep up the good work, Jane! :)
1:45-
You're too much.
Third party heresay???
Well, count me among those who think this is probably a fake. But, on the slight chance that it's not...
OP, you need to stop and think for a minute. I know you hate your mother in law, but she is a human being who was POISONED. And the person who poisoned her is the woman you put in charge of caring for your children every single day. At worst, the nanny is a monster who doesn't care who she hurts (or kills -- what if MIL had been allergic?). At best, she has extremely poor judgment. In either case, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER leave her in charge of my children again, nor would I give her a positive reference. At this point, my only dilemma would be whether or not to file charges.
I too love this Blog site and Jane as well, just as you do Umasslytheryn,I think she does an amazing job but, truth be told, I wondered the same thing? How would I react as the owner of a blog where someone confessed that their nanny admitted to comitting crime and what are my legal obligations?Not to mention my obligations to future children this nanny might care for?
Never thought about anything like that until this post.
I think calling anon 145 names just because she obviously had the same thought was not very nice umasslytheryn. Childrens lives are at stake here, if not theirs ,perhaps grandparents or parents that the nanny becomes angry with.
I am sure many regulars thought about this too?
Afterall..the site is set up to protect children and this nanny is a danger and might eventually move on to another family at some point.
Remember the horrible hit and run blog..everyone jumped at the chance to ream the passerby because he did nothing,but could have possibly saved the child had he acted. So, is it okay to allow children to stay in the line of danger because a mommy is not thinking clearly?
Just a thought.
1:45
What do you propose Jane do?
Police: 911, what is your emergency?
Jane: Hi, I'm calling about an anonymous post I received on my site called ISYN.
Police: O.k, what are the details?
Jane: Well, I got this letter, you see, from somebody I don't know, a nanny, saying they admitted to poisoning their Mil.
Police: Do you know this person's name?
Jane: No, I said they were anonymous.
Police: Do you know where they live?
Jane: No, I don't. I said they were anonymous.
Police: Well, I don't think we can help you.
Jane: O.k., thanks.
Um, how stupid do you think that conversation sounds?
There is NOTHING Jane can do.
Sorry I called you "crazy-maker." You're right. It wasn't very nice.
I was just dying to fit that word into my conversation today.
my bad.
:)
p.s. Love the Jane/911 fan fic conversation! Priceless! :)
Has any one thought for even one second maybe it wasnt the nanny? Maybe the mother in law staged it to get the nanny fired. Fits her personality perfectly
Nobody admitted to anything on the blog. The OP says the nanny admitted it to her in a car. Not on the blog. HERESAY.
Some of you have the intelligent of fleas.
Do you really think there is that much obligation in the world?
How about all of the people who pass children by who are in need??
Simply because they don't want to get involved or offend a parent?
231 ..where have you been darling?
OP already covered that. nanny admitted to lacing grams coffee with 3 laxative tabs.
And for the anonymous poster at 220pm.
Every post left on this blog is attatched to an IP number. All Jane would need to do is turn that # over to the police and they could trace it from there very easily. It might take a little searching on Janes part.
Seriously?
This is not a crime. Not the sort you would involve the law with!
Grow up!
2:38
Sure, maybe they could trace it. I thought of that. But then, if you have a house full of 10 people, then you'd have to prove which one wrote the story .... I don't know. I just don't see how it's possible.
And that's to say if it's even TRUE.
Too many leagalities.
And it shouldn't be thrown on top of Jane's shoulders.
I have a feeling the end result of this will be that the nanny will be let go, although it seems that she fits in well with one whacked out family.
ro, what if you or someone you knew was going to be hiring a nanny and this one showed up on your doorstep? You would never know what potential danger you were bringing into your home. If Jane or the OP turns over the alledged info, allowing the police to investigate, perhaps they would help to prevent a possible tradegedy from happening. If they do find enough evidence against the nanny, she would never pass a background check again and would be forced into a diffrent line of work. She would crack so easily when investigated, She broke down with mom in a matter of minutes. She is obviously an emotionally unbalanced person and needs to not be allowed to work with children .
Of all the posters here I am shocked that you condone someone like this nanny be allowed to continue working with children.Otherwise I would think you would want to see this person reported to the police as well.
Your flea remark was rude and way off here. I seem to recall you thinking many times over that ,yes, there is that much obligation in the world by many of your recent posts.Advocating for children is advocating for children..period!
244..are you kidding me? "This is not a crime"
What planet are you from?
Of course the law shouild be involved. There are children involved here!
You are just as bad as OP here..her..for not reporting it, lying to her husband and allowing her children to be cared for by this nanny and you for condoning all of it. Shame on you.
anon 245..why shouldn't this be thrown on Janes shoulders? She runs a website advocating children's saftey?
She is a strong, smart and very capable woman. She lives to rpotect and watch out for children.
I thought the nanny put the pills in MIL's coffee from the beginning. I think people were being very naive to think that this wasn't even a possibility. Furthermore I think that those of you who are now claiming this post is a fake are being very naive once again. Of course it is real.
This kind of thing is not unheard of. When people who lack much power feel treated unfairly, they might react by doing something like this, something that is in their power. Then they have a sense of being one-up on the situation, and they can stomach it better. A similar instance is when a waiter spits in an obnoxious customer's plate before bringing it out.
The important thing here is that the OP now knows the nanny's true colors. She cannot be trusted, period. She should be let go no matter what.
If it were me, I would tell my husband that nanny confessed to doing this.
I can understand OP's desire to keep this information from MIL at the present time. With MIL being as obnoxious as she is, knowing indeed the nanny confessed to doing this might make MIL feel like she can scrutinize every future nanny, that she is justified in doing so, and that she must "approve" of the future nanny that is hired.
However, if she wishes, OP can spin the letting go of nanny to please MIL anyway. MIL will be flattered.
And, so many people on this thread cannot understand why OP is reluctant to get rid of nanny. It's because at the moment, OP is still very caught up in the feeling of "OP & nanny versus MIL & hubby." But OP, you must get rid of this feeling, because it's really you and your family against the rest of the world. This nanny cannot be trusted, period. Many people cannot be trusted. Now that you know this nanny cannot be trusted, you need to get rid of her. She is not as good of a nanny as you thought in the first place. That's okay. This happens and you didn't do anything wrong in making this mistake (of trusting her and thinking she's good). But you cannot trust her now and must get rid of her.
OP, please come back and tell us more about what you decide to do. Keep us posted! Ignore the naive posters who say this isn't real. Thank you for sharing this story with us. It has been interesting watching this unfold.
GOOD LUCK! It's hard but you will get through this! ☺
OP
Where are you? you need to update.
C'mon, my tv is broken and this is the best thing going....
Ro, "some of you have the intelligent of fleas" ? you must mean intelligence. If you are going to insult people at least do it correctly. then again, maybe they don't have the "intelligent" to figure it out....
your mil sounds like my husbands grandmother. Out of her freakin mind! We would go to dinner at her house (she would cook) then we would have dessert, hugs, kisses, and say I love you. Not 10 minutes down the road the phone would ring "This is your grandmother and I know you took my $50.00! I am calling the police and reporting you!" She did this every time we went over there. It was impossible to deal with this woman. How the flip could we take money when she hides her purse when people go to her house. She even called the police to our house to see if her "books" were inside. They weren't and now the cops think she's crazy.
Your MIL is doing this to be mean and spitful. I can see right through her, what an evil woman she is. I feel sorry for you and the nanny. I know what you are dealing with. And you can't do anything but ignore her.
Oy. Let's start at the top for all those screaming aboout how Jane has some "obligation" to report this post to the police because "the safety of children" is at stake. Here's how it works:
IF someone had actually confessed to commiting a crime (which they haven't), Jane could then turn over their IP to the police, who would decide if enough suspicion existed to warrant a full investigation. A warrant would then be issued to the service provider of the person whose IP the "confession" came from to release the identity of the account holder to authorities. Once the identity of the account holder was established, police might investigate further to determine if a crime had actually been commited, and by which actual person that had access to the account with that IP address, and if so, charges might be filed. However, it doesn't seem that any confession of any crime has taken place here. Telling someone to not tell her husband that they had slipped a laxative into his mother's coffee does not constitute a crime that would warrant such efforts by law enforcement. And you can't arrest someone for something they "might" do or are "capable" of, so the lament that the nanny "might" do this to a child is irrelevant.
Oh, and you also most certainly can NOT arrest someone for not telling police that someone said that someone "might" do something bad to children someday. Which is the most that jane or OP can conceivably be accused of here.
2:48
Please don't forget, Jane hasn't any valuable info here BUT, the OP does. Don't allow her to shirk her responsiblity if you're so inclined to go after the person who's job it is to turn this wretched nanny in.
yikes! so many people are being rediculous, almost fanatical. CaliMom makes the most sense regarding all the legal stuff.
sure, the nanny should be fired. but anyone who thinks that a girl who put laxitives in an old lady's drink is a threat to society is just being silly. come one. she just wanted the old mil to get the runs and poop her pants so she could laugh.
some people are so dramatic.
Something is being over looked here.The MIL thought the nanny was up to something and poured the coffee down the drain.
What if she had drank the entire cup,ingested the 3 laxative tablets and ended up in the hospital from dehydration or just plain to sick to function.Which is very likley given her age.
DID any of you think of that??
Just because the nanny got lucky enough to have a smart victim does nont mean she should not be held accountable.
And Cali mom, I am sure if someone slipped something in YOUR moms drink you would feel different. Please tell me you would feel different?! How could you not expect Jane or OP to report this to the police?
If it were my MIL, who by the way, I despise and she feels likewise about me as I took her dear son away from her, I would have started the car the minute the nanny confessed and driven right to the police station.
What this nanny did is something that many think about doing but don't because we have what is called a conscience!!! And we have self control and discipline. People without those things are dangerous!!
Something has been overlooked here.
The MIL was onto the nanny and poured the coffee down the drain.
What if she had ingested the 3 pills and became ill with dehyration (very common with a laxative OD)or worse and ended up in the hospital?
My point is, MIL was proactive, what if she had not been and fell even slightly ill..
would you all still feel the OP or Jane had no Moral obligation to atleastb report what they know, hearsay or not?
The nanny was lucky enough to have a smart victim. Does that mean she should not be held accountable?
An emotionally balanced person would not have acted on an otherwise common thought!
It is called a conscience and anyone capable of putting pills into the coffee of an elderly person,bitch or not, does not have one!
Cali mom, I bet you would feel different if it were your mom. Please tell me you would feel different!
Nothing further from the OP??
I'm smelling a rat..........
Maybe the nanny poisoned OP?!
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