Saturday

Nelson Park in Stockton, CA

Received Saturday, April 26, 2008
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Physical description of caregiver: Mid to late 40's Hispanic female, long black hair in a braid kids called her Rosie

Physical description of involved child/children: 2 adorable blond haired children, the oldest a boy was 5ish and the little one a girl was 2ish maybe? The nanny kept calling her Lulubell.

Address or venue of observed incident: Nelson Park in Stockton, CA

Date and time of incident: 4/25/08 around 10:30 am

Detailed description of what you witnessed: I was feeding my charge his snack, and we were watching the kids and their nanny on the slide, because there was a lot of giggles as she was helping them climb up, (it was a double slide). It took a bad turn when the little boy kept getting on his little sisters side and almost squished her, the nanny shouted at him, "I TOLD YOU DON'T DO THAT!" and proceeded to smack his bottom twice, then put him on a time out for one minute. I was appalled, and my poor little charge who's 2 was terrified of what happened.

I did overhear the children's names, and if the parents happen to contact you I will give them to you, just did not want it to be posted unless you think it is necessary. Thanks for your awesome blog!

84 comments:

marypoppin'pills said...

Now that's a shame. Getting yelled at and then getting spanked, and then getting put into time-out.
Three punishments for ONE infraction? Bad Nanny ...

She could have just done the time-out and that would have been sufficient. I know everybody disciplines differently, and that's their prerogative, but I personally don't believe in spanking or yelling.

Poor kid. I am sure that scene was very upsetting to witness.

Thank you, OP.

JerseyXJacqui said...

That appalled you? I'm against spanking, but people have different ways of raising their kids. I understand it was the nanny, and there is a chance she IS an all around BAD nanny, but I have a feeling if she's spanking the kids she has the parents OK on that. In fact they may even encourage her to discipline them in that very way. I have come across quite a few parents in my babysitting days who had odd disciplinary tactics that they wanted me to partake in. I refused when it came to anything physical like smacking or anything downright cruel (seldom came across that), but let me tell you, some of these parents had some old school ideas about how to handle their little ones. I can't judge them and say it's right or wrong, that's not my place. You have to keep in mind though, not every parent pussy foots around their children like they're made of glass, both physically AND emotionally.

I think it was a good idea to report this JUST IN CASE, OP. I'm not knocking that...Like I said, this could very well be a mean nanny who doesn't deserve to be around kids...

But maybe not...

Anonymous said...

So, you think what the nanny did was ok? You seem to think the kid deserved what he got?

I think it was wrong, wrong, wrong. Especially if it was the nanny, you should NEVER put your hands on a kid.
There are other ways to discipline.
Spanking is the easy, lazy way out, and all it does is instill fear in a child, and humiliate him.

Anonymous said...

Just how in the world do you know spanking this child would be o.k. with the parents?

Don't you know that's why we have posts like this here all the time? Because there are nannies out there that would hit a kid, and mom and dad never find out about it.

And I gotta tell you, if a parent ever asked me to spank or smack their kid, I'd be looking for another job.
I won't do their dirty work for them!

Anonymous said...

sorry, last 2 posts were to jxj, not OP.

anonymous11 said...

the time out seemed like enough to me. i wouldn't allow my nanny to spank my kids. of course, i never had one.

JerseyXJacqui said...

Did I claim I KNEW anything? It was speculation and I made that very clear..and personally, NO I don't think it's ok...I also think I made THAT very clear.

Instead of skimming through and attacking me, read it thoroughly and it will be very apparent that I was simply presenting two sides of this situation. Get down off your high horse.

anonymous1 said...

i 'got' you Jersey and agree with what you said. i think you're right to refuse to apply physical punishment even if the parents want you to.

Anonymous said...

I do have to say that maybe the nanny was told to spank the children, I personally wouldn't spank someone elses kids, but you never know.

It doesn't seem like she is a bad nanny, especially from all the laughing, but maybe that she just made a mistake.

Since she is older, it may very well be that spanking is just how she raised or was taught to raise children, and so she spanks the kids.

If the parents did not tell her to spank and she is, hopefully they can see this post and tell her that they do not do that. And if they did tell her to do that, well then whatever. But at least it was posted to give the parents a chance to see it and either agree or not agree with it.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, 1:30.

My sentiments in a nutshell.

Anonymous said...

Too many assumptions are being made. We don't know if this nanny had permission to spank or not.
And if she did? The parents are wrong for allowing someone else to perform physical punishment.
That could really mess a kid up.

JerseyXJacqui said...

1:30, exactly...That was the point I was trying to make...

(Now I'm going to get attacked for commenting too much ;-) )

Anonymous said...

lol @ jxj

Anonymous said...

I am a nanny, and see nothing wrong with a swat on the butt if the situation calls for it. The parents whole-heartedly support this since we have tried every other discipline tactic known to man. I have done it once. Yes, I felt bad, but, sometimes it can be deserved. Go ahead and rant and rave about child abuse, but there is a big difference between child abuse and a swat.

Anonymous said...

Although I rarely agree with spanking children, when they are endangering another smaller child, and you have tried other things and they aren't working, I do believe a little swat is in order. A 5 year old boy, could easily trample a 2 year old, and she could get seriously hurt! My advice to her would have just been taking the child off the slide. But, maybe she already tried that.

But, I am glad it was posted, because no matter if spanking is right or wrong, it's always wrong if the parents don't know about it. And, good call on not posting the children's names. After the post a couple weeks ago, I think it would be smart to protect their identity.

Anonymous said...

Spanking is always wrong.
Spanking is barbaric.
I plead with you uncivilized people to educate yourselves on the subject.

You'e dead wrong.
And is anyone ever spanked my child, I would beat the living daylights out of them. (Yes, that's wrong too but no one lays a hand on my child).

Anonymous said...

1:44 there is absolutely no 'situation that calls' for spanking except for the simple-minded, sorry. I love the way people say they try this or that discipline but it 'doesn't work'. Most methods don't work unless you are consistent with them, they are age-appropriate, and you understand something called the 'extinction burst' - that is, behavior can worse before it gets better. Give up before your method has time to work and you'll end up with worse behavior than when you started.
Oh, and by the way, know your child development - how much impulse control does a two year old have? Is he at the age of reason? Hmm, no. If you want kids to behave, teach and model what you want them to do. If they aren't old enough to get it, remove them for a break and redirection.
Btw, I'm not a nanny, just a mom of twins, one of whom has autism, so I know about challenging behavior.

marypoppin'pills said...

5:23
From what you've written, it looks like we share the same kind of ideals on discipline.

I won't debate what is right or wrong for everyone else, mainly because it's none of my business how others decide to raise their children, but I do believe that if you are consistant and firm, a child will listen and behave.

I have seen so many Mom's just throw their hands up in the air and say, "I quit" ... and start spanking. I don't think you need to go that far. Yes it usually means more work at first, but in the end, I have a child that listens.
And you don't need to yell, either ... my child knows I'm not kidding around when the inflection in my voice changes.

It's very important we understand that there are mostly working Parents out there, and they don't have the luxury of time to be able to work close enough with their child for these techniques, and that's why it's imperative you have a Nanny that has the same beliefs in discipline as you do ... so they can help to bridge the parenting gap, so to speak.

JerseyXJacqui said...

It's pretty ballsy to start judging others on how they raise their children. Simple minded? barbaric?
You think you're being a bit dramatic?

Theatrics aside, I do agree with what 5:23 has said...that doesn't mean everyone else does though.

marypoppin'pills said...

Jerseyxj
Is your post directed to me, or just in general? Because I stated emphatically that it's none of my business how other people raise their children ... I was discussing how I raised mine.

jerseyxjacqui said...

No, I'm sorry MPP...I was referring to 5:23 and 2:44's posts.
Should have been more specific.
I actually think what you wrote was completely on point. :-)

marypoppin'pills said...

O.k. ☺
Thank you!

motheroffive said...

I have to say that, yes, there are situations that call for spanking. When my 5 year old and her best friend (my best friend's daughter) hid in the woods behind our house and would respond when I called their names until I was hysterical and was ready to call the cops (It was about 15 minutes that I was searching for them).

That got a spanking for the both of them. I cried, they cried and my best friend wholeheartedly agreed with me. Are you telling me that a time out would have had the same effect as a spanking? No, it woke them up to the severity of what they had done.

If it had been anyone else's child I would have thought twice before I spanked, but I would expect my best friend to give my child a good swat if they had done the same thing to her.

I believe there's a distinct difference between beating a child and giving them a good swat when they needed a wake up call. My mother did it to us and we all turned out to be happy, productive, intelligent members of society. I was only spanked five times in my life and each of the five times they were well deserved. Of all of my children, only two have been spanked and all have been for major, major offenses.

Don't judge me, I won't judge you. I have my ideas of how to raise my children, you have yours.

Anonymous said...

You don't have a right to hit your children because they are yours.

I will judge you everyday and judge you very harshly because you chose to spank/hit/physically hurt someone who is defenseless. In this case, your very own child.

You had no right to spank those children. Were you angry? Frustrated? Sure, you made your point, but a smarter woman could have made the point without H I T T I N G a tiny, defenseless child.

JerseyXJacqui said...

Wow 10:16. It must be hard being perfect.

motheroffive, nevermind the self righteous ones. They're usually the people who end up putting their kids in therapy for life.

JerseyxJacqui said...

Oh and I must add...

"A tiny defenseless child?"
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration in order to prove an already flawed point.
Such drama queens.

Anonymous said...

Show me one person with an IQ over 145 who has ever spanked their child? And intelligence is heriditary.

A few more generations and your people will evolve and smarten up. Until then, keep smacking the shit out of those you love. It feels good, right?

ro said...

Speaking of people with high iqs...



1. Spanking teaches children two lessons: that hitting people is okay and that violence works.

2. Spanking destroys self-esteem, damages children's ability to learn and sets the stage for future emotional problems.

3. Children learn good behavior by imitating good behavior and respect by being respected. --Jordan Riak

Anonymous said...

Children's optimal development occcurs in nurturing and violence-free environments Remember when you were a little child and everything was so exciting to you. You may have felt that world was a fun place to be. No judgements, no responsibilities, no jobs to tend to and you were free to do what ever was fun and interesting. During that time is when you probably learned the most. Spanking impairs the ability to learn. When a child is in a calm and non-threatening state the brain is in it's prime to learn. However, if spanking a child makes him or her feel angry or scared they become hypervigilant, and learning comes to a screeching halt. Children who are taught to fear regular spankings tend to live in a semi-agitated state that is not conducive to optimal learning.

Stop Hitting said...

Spanking is counterproductive and dangerous

Why are spankings, slaps, and even apparently harmless blows like pats on the hand dangerous for a baby?


They teach it (the baby) violence
They destroy the infallible certainty of being loved that the baby needs
They cause anxiety; the expectancy of the next break
They convey a lie: they pretend to be educational, but parents actually use them to vent their anger; when they strike, it’s because, as children, they were struck themselves
They provoke anger and a desire for revenge, which remain repressed only to be expressed much later
They program the child to accept illogical arguments (I’m hurting you for your own good) that stay stored up in their body
They destroy sensitivity and compassion for others and for oneself, and hence limit the capacity to gain insight

What long-term lessons does the baby retain from spankings and other blows? The baby learns:


That a child does not deserve respect
That good can be learned through punishment (which is usually wrong, since punishment merely teaches the children to want to punish on their own turn)
That suffering mustn’t be felt, it must be ignored (which is dangerous to the immune system)
That violence is a manifestation of love (fostering perversion)
That denial of feeling is healthy (but the body pays the price of this error, often much later)

How is repressed anger very often vented? In childhood and adolescence:


By making fun of the weak
By hitting classmates
By annoying the teachers
By watching tv and playing video games to experience forbidden and stored up feelings of rage and anger, and by identifying with violent heroes. (Children who have never been beaten are less interested in cruel films, and, as adults, will not produce horror shows).
In adulthood:
By perpetuating spanking, as an apparently educational and effective means, often heartily recommended to others, whereas in actual fact, one’s own suffering is being avenged on the next generation
By refusing to understand the connections between previously experienced violence and the violence actively repeated today. The ignorance of society is thereby perpetuated
By entering professions which demand violence
By being gullible to politicians who designate scapegoats for the violence that has been stored up and which can finally be vented with impunity: “impure” races, ethnic “cleansing”, ostracized social minorities
(Because of obedience to violence as a child), by readiness to obey any authority which recalls the authority of the parents, as the Germans obeyed Hitler, the Russians Stalin, the Serbs Milosivic.

Anonymous said...

Punishment and hitting (spanking) do not teach a child accountability. By using punishment the "punisher" is taking the responsibility to see that the child’s behavior changes. If you use punishment, by your actions, YOU have accepted responsibility for your child's behavior. If you accept the responsibility for your child's behavior then he/she will have to learn to be accountable outside your influence, and the outside world is a tough teacher!

Anonymous said...

Treat your children in a manner that you would like to be treated! When I am asked about the issue of spanking, I always ask people why they choose to attempt to legitimize the behavior by calling it "spanking". Why do people not just call it what it is... hitting children? So I ask that instead of using the word SPANK, let's agree to use the word HIT during our discussions instead.

Then I usually ask, "On what basis do you advocate hitting your children? Is it because you are bigger? Because you are older? Because you are more experienced? Because you are more educated? Because you are stronger?"

It would seem to me that those would be reasons that would sort of disqualify anyone from being justified to hit a child. Then I usually ask them, "How would you respond if I came to your house and hit you because your garage is a mess?"

Nope it doesn't said...

The bible doesn't even tell you to spank!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3m8K5Nq6tc

Anonymous said...

Children who are spanked are shown to display:
many emotional & social problems, impaired parent/child relationships, lower IQ, increased aggressiveness, behavior problems, learning problems, lower academic scores, antisocial behavior, depression problems, more likely to suffer from addictions & commit domestic abuse, prone to be angry and show less long term compliance. Not a single study shows ANY benefit that cannot be achieved from other non-violent forms of discipline. Not all adults who are corporally punished as kids have all these problems, but not all people who smoke get lung cancer either. It's not a good thing...

Dr. Spock - said...

"Physical punishment certainly plays a role in our acceptance of violence. If we are to turn toward a kindlier, society and a safer world, a revulsion against the physical punishment of children would be a good place to start."

Ann Landers said...

"Parents who hit their children teach them to hit others. And please tell me, when does hitting end and beating begin? And who decides where the line is? If you read the history of the most violent criminals, you will find that almost without exception, they were physically abused throughout their childhood."

Albert Einstein said...

"To me the worst thing seems to be for a school
principally to work with methods of fear, force and
artificial authority. Such treatment destroys the
sound sentiments, the sincerity and self-confidence of
the pupil. It produces the submissive subject. . . It
is comparatively simple to keep the school free from
this worst of all evils. Give into the power of the
teacher the fewest possible coercive measures, so that
the only source of the pupil's respect for the teacher
is the human and intellectual qualities of the
latter."

Anonymous said...

a story told by Astrid Lindgren
[Author of Pippi Longstocking]
"Above all, I believe that there should never be any violence." In 1978, Astrid Lindgren received the German Book Trade Peace Prize for her literary contributions. In acceptance, she told the following story.

"When I was about 20 years old, I met an old pastor's wife who told me that when she was young and had her first child, she didn't believe in striking children, although spanking kids with a switch pulled from a tree was standard punishment at the time. But one day when her son was four or five, he did something that she felt warranted a spanking - the first of his life. And she told him that he would have to go outside and find a switch for her to hit him with. The boy was gone a long time. And when he came back in, he was crying. He said to her, "Mama, I couldn't find a switch, but here's a rock that you can throw at me."

All of a sudden the mother understood how the situation felt from the child's point of view: that if my mother wants to hurt me, then it makes no difference what she does it with; she might as well do it with a stone. And the mother took the boy onto her lap and they both cried. Then she laid the rock on a shelf in the kitchen to remind herself forever: never violence. And that is something I think everyone should keep in mind. Because violence begins in the nursery - one can raise children into violence."

I think that too often we fail to feel situations "from the child's point of view," and that failure leads us to teach our children other than what we think we're teaching them.

.............maybe one day....?

Anonymous said...

Drama queens indeed.

How about we NOT call a spanking "hitting." (or beating, or violence or terroristic, or whatever melodramatic term you feel you must trump it up to to make your point sound more valid.)

When does a spanking become a beating? When you lose control and beat your kid. Duh! It's similar to the difference between saying, "no no" and screaming, "Shut the f*** up you &^*^*& brat!" (That's for those who think they might be unable to recognize what they apparently believe to be a very fine, almost indistinguishable line.)

Most prisoners may have been "beaten." That's an entirely different subject. But the study is probably flawed anyway, because it is also true that most law abiding citizens of generations past were also spanked. It was the way discipline was done up until not that long ago. So I offer a counter argument: "Spanking produces well adjusted, happy law abiding citizens, because if you take a poll of the most successful, well adjusted, happy, law abiding citizens over a certain age, they will almost ALL report being spanked."

Didn't Dr. Spocks son commit suicide?

Lastly, my IQ is ABOVE 145. What's yours?

Anonymous said...

10:08, 5:23 here. I never suggested a time-out for something like hiding from a mother's increasingly anxious calls. Know your child's currency (what rewards and privileges they like) and you'll know what you can remove to make a disciplinary point.
What the kids needed to learn, besides complying, was empathy for you. The very thing they were supposed to learn, was denied to them, in the form of a spanking.

Oh, and as far as judging, yes we should be willing to take a stand and speak out. Just as we speak out against discrimination, racism, sexism and a whole host of other issues and that has nothing to do 'drama', as another poster put it.

The most twisted thing about spanking to me, is that the child is drawn into the whole rationale and then, for his own preservation, psychologically embraces it.

Btw, Ro, Stop Hitting, and esp. 10:31 and 10:39.. Well Said!

Anonymous said...

There is a huge difference in spanking and hitting. I am a nanny and would never spank someone Else's child, no matter what. But I also don't see how spanking a child will lower his IQ or scar him for life. Spanking is a form of discipline, one that has spanned generations and cultures. You can't convince me that many centuries of parenting without books had it wrong! Come on now folks. Whether to spank or not is your decision, but don't try to sell this crap about mentally destroying a child by a swat on the hand or bottom.

gee said...

I say-if you have to resort to spanking it's because you have no idea what you're doing when it comes to discipline. It really isn't hard to get children to behave, all you need is consistent and firm boundaries and set consequences. If children misbehave too much it's because their parents are idiots in most cases.

Be a good example for your children said...

Well, I think this just about says it all.

Be good to your children.
Be a good influence.

Anonymous said...

spanking- another word for HITTING
someone who coerces someone to do things using threats of violence-

A BULLY

I would never ever hire a nanny who was so ignorant to not get how destructive the very introduction of physical punishment is! You would be out the door so fast. That's a deal breaker and in my book the best sign of someone's childcare intelligence.

Jane Doe said...

be a good example-
That was chilling. Thank you for posting that. I think I am going to move it to the welcome post today.

UseCommonSense said...

2:55 There are all kinds of children. What works for one doesn't work for another.
If it were that easy, we could all use one and the same simplified childrearing "recipe" and guarantee ourselves a bunch of well rounded, fantastic children.

Some of you seem to be forgetting that the average child who is disciplined consistently, whether it be time outs,loss of priveleges, verbal correction, or even swats on the tush, is going to require far fewer episodes of discipline overall, because when parents are consistent most children learn to behave very quickly. So a child who is spanked (spanked, not beaten or hit) by a rational, controlled parent instilling discipline is probably not living a life filled daily with "being hit." More likely, the child has a just a few spankings, learns that he does not like that, and refrains from paricipating in the offending behavior in the future in order to avoid the consequences. ("Unpleasant Consequences" for bad behaviors? When did this become such a dirty word? Our children are suffering for this mentality! Wake up!) He will also learn that when mom or dad gives an instruction its best to listen up and do as they are asked.

It's not a bad concept. Kids should be encouraged to have their feelings and emotions and express themselves, just like you should be able to do the same at your job. But if you don't learn to keep it in check when your boss has made the final decision, you're going to have trouble, and you may not get to choose a "nice, sort-of-uncomfortable-but-not-too-unpleasant" consequence.

That said, I think the story above about the child bringing his mother a rock to throw at him should be a very stern warning to us all about any discipline we give our kids. We need to find a way to make sure they know that what we do we do because we love them and want to mold them well so that they grow up and go out into the world with a good set of morals and the ability to navigate the crazy world with some sense of competence and confidence. Any discipline that seems to be spewing out of a parent gripped by frustration or anger, or is uncontrolled, is going to have the same negative effect as "hitting" your child.

undercover regular said...

When I read the story about the boy bringing a rock in for his mom to throw at him, chills ran down my spine.

I can't imagine a parent who believe's in spanking, wanting to continue to do so after reading that. It sends a painfully strong message, and thank you for the person that posted it. You never know - you may have changed a parents mind about how they discipline their child now.

And I would like to ask:
Are there any parents out there that started out thinking spanking would be the best form of discipline, and then changed their mind?
Because if we're all going to be honest, I was raised by parents that believed in "spare the rod, spoil the child" - so I always thought that I would rear my children the same way.

But as I got older, my beliefs changed, and now I could never bring myself to strike a child ...
ever.

MissDee said...

I just wanted to point out that this nanny was inappropriate AND unprofessional. A simple, positive statement should've been enough to correct the behavior, and I use "positive" child guidance techniques (positive statements, etc) when working with children. I attended a workshop entitled "Positive Child Guidance", and it was quite interesting. Dan Gartrell's 7 Principles of Child Guidance were used, and the entire workshop was very imformative. Most of the discipline techniques I have used in the past-Stoplight Game, The Treasure Box, etc, along with the 3 R's (remind, reinforce, and reprimand) and time outs usually work, yet, at my old daycare, I was slapped by a 3 year child, and the owner says, "Danielle, I don't know why these children don't like you" I nearly lost it, and realized that I did what I thought worked best with the children. I did what I was taught in the many classes that I have had in child development, and the hands on experience that I have learned from directors and co workers. The discipline at this center was nonexsistent, and the director told me I couldn't discipline the children. I was bit, scratched, kicked, and slapped by preschoolers on a daily basis, and all my director/owner did was point a finger in my face and laugh at the situation. This woman had a "college degree", owned a business, and yet didn't know the first thing about appreciation of her staff, and the best interests of the children. This center was so bad that on field trips, people noticed us and asked us not to come back. The reason for that is because of the owner's beliefs and childcare/professional practices. I learned so much just by working for her that I vowed to NEVER act like her.

My point here is that anyone can say they are educated and experienced, yet childcare does require a lot of patience and common sense. My ex boss (a co defendant in a fraude case) and this nanny lacked both in my opinion.

I love you guys!

Anonymous said...

I've been a nanny for over 20 years and NEVER spanked, slapped or punished my charges in any physical way.
If the rules of "time-out" are in place and a consistent policy of removal of privileges is enforced, corporal punishment simply isn't necessary.
If this had been my nanny, she'd be very, very sorry...and unemployed!

Anonymous said...

That link for "a good example for your children" made me cry! I AM feeling very emotional today though! Interestingly (and disturbingly) I saw something from that video in real life once. I was at the zoo and saw a mother and daughter walking along about the same age as the girl in the video. The mother was smoking and all of a sudden the little girl tugged on her shirt sleeve and automatically the mother lowered the cig down to the childs mouth and the girl took a drag! It was a few years ago but I remember it like yesterday it burned such a horrible image in my brain.

Anonymous said...

1:39 AM
Spanking is a form of discipline, one that has spanned generations and cultures.
You can't convince me that many centuries of parenting without books had it wrong!

Yes, in generations and cultures where very young children worked in factories, and on farms, did not go to school, were sold into indentured servitude, and had no legal protection from abusive parents or employers.
Hopefully civilization is evolving and moving forward to more enlightened treatment of all people, including children.
A Nanny

Anonymous said...

Dear A Nanny,
No I suppose I cannot convince you, so I will not try. I am comfortable in the knowledge that future generations of A Nanny will have sufficiently evolved that they will stop physically hurting their young to 'teach them'.

A Better Nanny

Anonymous said...

Touché ... "A better Nanny!" LOL

Hmmm... said...

Hmmm...in all my years as a nanny, I've never had the urge to strike a child.
When kids become unruly, whiny, disobedient, or tantrum-prone, I feel many things:

Sometimes I feel compassion for them and soothe them.
Sometimes I feel exhausted by them and send them to time-out.
Sometimes I feel irritated by the whole scene and realize I'm burned-out...I then request a day off from my employers.
Sometimes the silliness of a tantrum gives me the giggles and I'm able to calm the child with kindess and humor.

Spanking or hitting of any kind just never enters my mind. And it should never, IMO, be an option for nannies or parents. Ever.

Hmmm... said...

oops..."kindness" not "kindess"^^^

mom said...

hmmmmmm,
Was it good for you?

Anonymous said...

I think what is interesting in this debate is whether a sense of fear is a good thing for a child to have. I think I was only spanked once or twice as a child and maybe had my hand swatted. I remember I cried. But I always respected my parents and I feared what would happened if I did anything really really wrong. I pushed my dad to see if he would hit me a few times as a teenager and he never did. But I feared making him that angry because I loved him not because I thought he would hurt me. All the anti-spankers say that fear harms a child. I am also of the mind set that normally a child should not be spanked. However, I disagree that a child should not fear discipline. The lack of "fear" in todays adolescents is why our juvenile detention centers are beyond at capacity. And guess what? The anti-spanking has held over there too. There are very limited circumstances when restraints are allowed. And now more staff get hurt and these "kids" end up in adult prison. I am not advocating beating children, spanking for every infraction, or tying up juvenile delinquints. But I do think we should be very wary of doing away with the "fear." Our children should fear the consequences of socially unacceptable behavior.

cali mom said...

12:28 wrote "What the kids needed to learn, besides complying, was empathy for you. The very thing they were supposed to learn, was denied to them, in the form of a spanking."

VERY good point! I can see how that mom would FEEL the need to express her own frustration, and might think that smacking those kids HARD would convey it effectively and punish them sufficiently that they would never repeat that particular behavior again, but does it teach them that Mom always needs to know where they are to ensure that they are safe? And that Mom was extremely scared because she thought they had been hurt or lost somewhere? That they COULD come to some real harm by wandering far away and not responding to Mom's calls?

Or just that if they make Mom mad enough she will smack them hard?

Sprak said...

That's an excellent post, 12:38 and I totally agree with you. It is very interesting to me how much some children seem to fear the "time out". You'd almost think they were headed to Alcatraz. If it works, though, that's a good thing. Not every method of discipline works for every child, but discipline is extremely important in raising children to become well-adjusted adults.

Anonymous said...

i don't see what she did wrong. As long as the parents are OK with it.

Anonymous said...

This may not work for everybody, but it's worked for me like a charm.

I had some issues with my son's behavior. He had a bit of a problem not listening, and more of a problem talking back. He was 5 at the time I started this discipline.

Every day he behaved, he got a quarter and a sticker. If he didn't do the right thing the first time, I took away the quarter. The second infraction, he lost his sticker. The third (kind of like 3 strikes and your out), he would get a time-out.

It took about 2 wks., but then he started to turn around. I can't tell you how proud I was. Together we made up a really cool chart to put his stickers on, and we also made a really cute piggy bank.

At the end of the wk. if he got all 7 stickers, he got a toy. (Nothing big) - BUT, at the end of the month, if he got all his stickers, we would go to Toys R Us with all the money (he learned to save, by the way!) and he'd get a big toy, like a video game or something.

Honestly, I think the kid went into time-out twice, and that was all it took. So the reward system really works around our house, and I have one of the BEST behaved kid's ever, and the most incredible compliment I ever got, was when strangers would say, "my, what a nice (or polite, or behaved ...) little boy you have!"
You should see the huge smile across my son's face - because he's proud of himself, too!

P.S.
Try to used POSITIVE reinforcement. My parents NEVER told me they were proud of me, or that I was a good kid (I was - very quiet and shy). So I always tell my kids how much I love them and how great they are!

mom said...

Ahhh, that last one remionds me of how I got my boy to cooperate witht he dentist. They were both well behaved in general, and especially for other adults...but somehwow when face with the intense fear of the dentist they would go nuts. The little one kept coming out wiht stickers pasted on his shirt that said, "I pitched a fit" on them. (It was supposed to be funny....which it was...but also hard on me to know that not only were my kide terrified, but that they were neeidng to engage a bunbch of their office staff to calm them.)Once they told me my then 3-4 year old son had leaped from the chair and bolted for the door...during the exam!!!

So I had this idea one day on the way to the dentist. I said to them that whoever went to the exam withour crying or struggling or jumping form the cahir would get to go straight to Toys R Us and choose a small toy right after the visit...even before taking the bigger boy back to school. It was great. They went in like "big boys," were very proud of their ability to behave so bravely, and each got a toy right after the visit. Then I told them that their behavior that day proved that they were brave and did not need to cry at the dentist ever again...and they didn't.

A little sidetrack to the topic there...but maybe some of you with little ones who are scared of healthcare visits might benefit from trying this.

mom said...

Wow! What a lot of typos I left in there! I suppose I should just smile and say, "you're welcome."
Come and get your "O's" ladies!

marypoppin'pills said...

Lmao, Oh Mom!

Anonymous said...

I have nannied for a girl (now 7) who has been spanked by her parents on maybe a handful of occassions for pretty major 'offenses.' These were not beatings by any means, just a few solid swats on the bottom. Not out of control, not out of extreme anger. She is not violent in the least. She would never consider hitting or harming any person or animal, and doesn't even talk about violence in any of her play. So I would have to disagree with the posts claiming that spanking makes children violent and aggressive. This child is sweet and generally very well-behaved. However, sometimes kids just do step out of line, test limits, and then are reprimanded. In my 3 years of nannying for her I put her on time out maybe 3 times. I was given permission by her parents to spank her for certain things, but I never felt the need to because she never did anything I felt warranted a spanking. However, I would not have thought twice about doing so because 1. Its what her parents asked me to do 2. I also agree spankings for certain things are warranted. A few swats with an open hand on a covered bottom on occassion is not going to scar a child for life and make them a violent sociopath. I work for another family where spanking is prohibited and in fact the child is probably the most violent child I have ever met in my life.

Anonymous said...

People who spank (hit) their own children = ignorant

People who allow others to hit (spank) their children = sickos

Nannies who work for such ignorant people = *desperate

*and I know the kind of people who spank their children and ask their nanny to spank their children can't afford a real nanny salary, health insurance or benefits. Let me guess, you transport the children around in your beater car?

LindaLou said...

i can't fathom that some people are even debating whether or not it's okay for the NANNY to spank a child IN PUBLIC over SOMETHING STUPID that could have been easily handled another way.

personally, i'm against all spanking, but surely even supporters of milf parental should be able see the wrongness of the above scenario. good grief! if the nanny is spanking over this petty stuff with the approval of the parents (who clearly alos spank the child), can you imagine how many times this kid is being hit? my bet is 365 days a year by someone or another. on what planet would this be in any way acceptable?

Anonymous said...

The ignorance of people who spank (hit) their children makes me so angry, I want to beat the hell out of them with the butt of a snub nosed revolver.

I know it's wrong, but in this day and age, anyone who defends spanking is about as bright as someone who defends holding an infant in your lap while driving or not wearing sun block in los angeles.

LindaLou said...

wow, lots of typos. sorry.

cali mom said...

Okay, what is milf?

Anonymous said...

10:41, I really appreciated your comments.

I am a mother who uses spanking as a form of discipline for my young child. I feel that spanking should not be done out of anger but as a way to correct the child. I cringe when I see children getting so-called spankings in public. These swats are usually careless and often brought on by frustration (after yelling didn't work). It seems this was the kind of spanking given at the playground.

In this day and age it is not wise to spank in public. Rather than being so impulsive, the nanny could have removed the child from his play for a while and had a private talk. That is what I would have done if my own child had been in that situation.

marypoppin'pills said...

Cali,
milf = mother I'd like to f*ck.

And this is in response to 11:33's post:
This video clearly shows who should have kids, and who shouldn't!

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, but I don't understand lindalou's use of the word "milf parental".
Do you know what "milf" means, lindalou???

Anonymous said...

I totally understand why those in the pro-spanking camp don't want people to call it hitting. It's much easier to rationalize hitting your kid (or, God forbid, someone else's) if you can call it by some other, more sanctioned, term.

But lets look at this: if you were to do the exact same thing to a face or other area, what would it be called? It would be called hitting, because that's what it is. So why is it ok to hit a child (in an area so closely associated with an erogenous zone), call it by another name, and deem it an acceptable parenting practice?

If you do something to an adult and it's called assault, what is it when you do it to a child?

LindaLou said...

calimom, i was aiming for *mild parental spanking*. lol.

marypoppin'pills said...

LOL @ lindalou!
Cute!

Anonymous said...

Typically, women who stay with abusive husbands/boyfriends say,
"I deserved it, he really loves me".
And typically, these women were spanked as children.
See the connection?

fg said...

Not sure if it's typical for an abused woman to think she deserved it but it does happen. Sometimes a woman puts up with abuse to keep the family together or because of the security of being in the marriage. Many abused women may be silent but inside the resentment is building and building and building...

Anonymous said...

First off I would never allow anyone to spank my child, not even my mother. Even though she encourages it.

Anyhow I have spanked my child at least couple times out of "fear"at the time I was pregnant very pregnant in fact and my child who was entering the "terrific twos" decided to bite me and run off towards the street. Well at that time I could barely run, I waddled fast as I could calling her name, very fearful how close to traffic she was getting, so all I could manage was to grab her pony tail, I gently tugged, she stopped and I gave her a spank on her behind and told her stay near mommy. Now at the time I was very afraid visions of death and pain were running through my head. So because I resorted to spanking I'm a horrible mother?

I don't advocate spanking, or yelling, time outs is what works for us most of the times, but there have been times when a spank on the behind has gotten attention of my little one, not repeated spanking mind you, a single spank, and that has been rare for us to do. I feel that maybe this nanny was fearful for what the older child was doing to his little sister. I think we judge too harshly on people who use spanking as a form of punishment. Again don't mis-read, I said repeated and constant spanking is inappropriate a single spank sometimes gets the kids attention certainly when all you use is your voice as a form of punishment all day telling them they can't do something, they get used to it. In this case yes she should not of used that many secession of spanks. And a simple verbal, "please don't do that because so and so is little" and if they keep doing it, time out baby! After that time to do something else.

And by the way the word "discipline" is not appropriate to use for physical punishment.
Discipline means "teaching self control" which can be used in all areas of life. Example: Learning to control impulses is a form of teaching discipline. What we need to use for spanking is punishment. Time out's is a form of punishment, yelling is a form of punishment. I think if we learn to use proper definitions we may understand where to draw the lines of punishments.

Anonymous said...

Spanking is perfectly fine. You people who don't ever spank your children are the ones who will grow to have snotty little brats who think everything in the world belongs to them.

If my child decides to run out into the street or in a busy parking lot, best believe he's getting a slap on the butt. Do you really think a swift talking to and a 2 minute time out is going to teach a 2 year old anything?

Anonymous said...

Yes.
It worked for me.
A two minute time out plus the loss of the chance to play on her carousel which was located at the front of her estate. She was remanded to the back corner which had non such suitable toddler toys.

Anonymous said...

"which had non such suitable toddler toys."

What are you? uber nanny?
Weird sentence structure.

Anonymous said...

lmao!!! too funny, 4:47! I too liked that post: it made me think of a diction excersise you would do in a theatre class!:) hehehe

Anonymous said...

Wow no suitable toys for 2 minutes?
That poor child .Banished to the back of estate on top of it? I bet the kid would have rather had a slap on the butt and remembered why he /she got that whack.
Beatings and spanking are two different things. You do not have to hurt a child if you whack their butts. A light whack usually takes care of it. I doubt very much if a whack is going to send a child into a life time of being an abused spouse. Beatings are more than likely to do that or verbal abuse telling them they are worthless.
I got spankings and some hard ones too when I was growing up and so did all my siblings and none of us are abused wives or abusive husbands. I don't beat my kids and none of my siblings did either. One whack usually gets the idea over to them.
I have seen people slap their chldrens faces and that is wrong or use a belt on them. I would step up to the plate if I saw that. I won't say a word if I see a kid get a whack on the butt for acting like a beast.
We see these kids all the time laying on the floors in shopping centers screaming and kicking because they can't have what they want and runing amok in dining places,ruining our good time out. The parents usually sit there like logs feeding their faces and saying " sit down or your going to get a time out" roflmao. They don't care if those kids are annoying everyone else. They are the lazy ones that think their kids have the right to express themselves anywhere they are. They ignore them while they annoy everyone else. What are they to do? Where are they going to give these kids a time out at? SO they just eat their meals and "talk" to the kid. As the kid totally ignores them. I mean what is the punishment going to be ?? They might have to actually sit down??
Please God not that hard of a punisment it might Scar them for life. I am sure the rest of the public will be scarred for life after an hour of listening and watching these kids act up.
You actually expect a 2yr old to understand all that hot air you are spewing ?? You think they really know what the hell you are talking about? They have short term memories at that age and are probably thinking how boring you are. I just wonder how long the timeout is if they set the house on fire?