Tuesday

The Bat Mitzvah invite that did not come...

Received Tuesday, April 29, 2008-Perspective & Opinion
I just want some opinions on this matter to find out if I'm hurt for no reason. I have worked one day per week for a family for 5 years. They have great kids and I love them very much and have a great relationship with them. When I changed jobs a year and a half ago I made sure that the new family I was working for was OK with me leaving early that one day so I could stay on there as one of the children is diabetic and I am now familiar with all that needs to be done. I have recently learned that I am not invited to the daughter's Bat Mitzvah. I was very hurt by this. In 5 years I've gone above and beyond for them (even taking time out of my daily job to help them out on occasion) and love their kids as much as any children I look after 5 days a week.
My question for nannies and parents alike is am I overreacting to this? Should I not be hurt? Also when the time comes should I buy her a present for this occasion or wait until her actual birthday?
To me this feels like I don't mean anything to their family for them to not include me and that's why it is hurtful. Thanks for your opinions.

131 comments:

Anonymous said...

Why not just ask them? I would.

Anonymous said...

OP,

You are not overreacting! From your description, I am surprised you were not invited, and completely understand feeling hurt. Should you choose to bring it up, and assuming you are not jewish, don't be surprised if they say they didn't think you'd want to go to synagogue. This is a lame excuse. Good luck in whatever you decide to do!

JerseyXJacqui said...

That would be a silly thing for the parents to assume (if OP isn't Jewish that is). I'm not Jewish but the majority of people I know (including my step family and my employers) ARE. I don't think anyone ever questioned whether or not I'd want to be part of a Jewish holiday or celebration.
But hey, you could be on point with that 11:20.

OP, I'd ask them. Bring it up casually. It could be something as simple as what 11:20 suggested. I would definitely be hurt if I was in your position though. Your feelings are justified.

And yes, I'd still get her a gift for her actual bat mitzvah day even if you aren't invited. It's a big day for her, ya know? It's not her fault that her parents are thoughtless :-)

Let us know how it works out...

Anonymous said...

I have never ever been to a Bat Mitzah where everyone in attendance was Jewish.

That's absurd. And anyone would know it!@

Sadly, this 1 day a week sitter just didn't rate. Or maybe the sitter has a husband/boyfriend they didn't want to include?

NOVANANNY said...

Maybe, just maybe it's a number's issue. Sometimes, their is only accomadations for a certain number of people. If your charge is from a large family maybe it's a FAMILY ONLY DEAL!I cannot imagine any other reason they would exclude you.Don't take it so personal and make plans to celebrate the occasion with a special lunch where the two of you can relive her special day.

Anonymous said...

Question

If your a nanny, do you invite the family to your birthday party or other holiday celebrations?

Just curious

Thanks

Anonymous said...

usually not.
mixed company does not work for me.
I can hold my own with my boss and her friends but I dont want her around my friends. They would be uncomfortable. It would just be awkward. Probably for both of you.

Anonymous said...

I don't think this was a dis to you. Bat Mitzvahs are usually for close family and selected friends. It can be a costly thing too, and if they invited you, they would have had to extend a plus one invite to you as well. Maybe they couldn't afford it. Maybe they thought you wouldn't be into it. Maybe you were the one that slipped their minds. It could be anything. You could always ask about the Bat Mitzvah casually and see what is up.

Anonymous said...

Oh, give me a break! It has nothing to do with her not being Jewish and them thinking that perhaps she would be uncomfortable! Are you saying that Jewish people only invite other Jewish people to Bat Mitzvahs and such? That is a riot!

Just for shits and giggles, let's say that is the case, then all they have to do is not invite her for the ceremony but for the party afterwards which more than likely is being held at a big non-denominational catering hall. They aren't inviting her because she is the nanny! How would it look to be socializing with the help? ((insert eye roll here))

I would find some way to let them know that you are hurt by this. As for giving the kid a gift, if you would normally give her a birthday gift, then I would still do that. But, if you aren't invited to the Bat Mitzvah, then a birthday gift only, no Bat Mitzvah gift on top of it!

Anonymous said...

My husband and I have a party every summer at our house and I always invite the family I work for, they have come both times. I am invited to kid's bday parties every year.
Here is my question, should I be offended if I am not in the baby books? I have worked for the family for 3+ years and they have 2 kids. When the younger one was born, I stayed overnight with the older child and brought him to the hospital in the morning, and the mom COMPLETELY changed the story of what happened. Should I be hurt that I am only listed under the "Favorite Caregiver" section (just my name)? Or just accept that I am not really "part of the family" like they all tell me?
OP-You should have been invited, I would say something casually.

Anonymous said...

I would be hurt.
I don't think it has to do with money. This is a huge event that for a family of means, they can afford every luxury. For a family that isn't so well off, I'm sure this is something most save for because it is a rite of passage.

Nope, it isn't about money.
It isn't they "forgot".

Unfortunately, I think it's because your "just the help" ... and that's outrageous.

You are a direct influence on their daughter, and it's a shame they didn't think more highly of you to invite you.

This family blew it -- big time.

But don't take it out on the daughter, it's not her fault.
If you can afford it, get her a gift.

That will accomplish TWO things.
One: YOU will feel better, because YOU have a heart, and it will mean a lot to the girl.
Two: The parents will feel like A-holes because once they see you've cared enough to get a gift, they will most likely feel guilty that they didn't invite you.

But, just do it for the first reason.
Secretly, I'm thinking of the second one for you!!

Janet E. said...

I once attended a ridiculous bat mitzvah... as in a $200 000 event. The hostess was pissed at her sister for bringing her nanny and the3yr old son... apparently only her two older (6 & 9 yr old) daughters where invited.. weird and he was well behaved, better than the middle child. you'd think if you can afford a $200 000 bat mitzvah you can afford 2 more people....

Anonymous said...

I don't know ... I've never attended, or known a Family, to "cut corners" at a Bat Mitzvah.
It's usually such a grand event. Even a family that didn't seem like they had a lot of money, still I think the Grandparents chipped in or something, because it was sensational.

I'm just saying.

Anonymous said...

I'm a nanny and I haven't attended a family function for the family I work for in the three years I've been with them. Nor have they been invited to any of my family gatherings.
Occasionally, the mother and I will have lunch together, but it's more to talk over the kids, the household operations, etc. So it's more like a business lunch.
We're cordial and exchange gifts for holiday's and birthday's as well as special occasions, but we really don't socialize. I've been like this with all the families I worked for.
Oddly enough, I don't have a lot of the issues of being taken advantage of by my employers like many of the nannies I know do. I enjoy my work, and enjoy the children in my care, but I keep things strictly professional. It seems to work out well that way.
Also, and please don't take offense, but the family you work for might think by inviting you they are Gift-seeking. Ettiquette dictates that if you attend a party, your gift should cover the cost of the meal plus a suitable amount as a gift. For some occasions, that can top out at 150.00 or more for one person! The family might be worried that in inviting you, you might feel pressured to give a gift that is beyond your means. I know I took this into consideration when making out the guest list for my daughter's First Holy Communion, which was held in an expensive resturant.
My advice would be to give the child a savings bond or other gift and don't worry about it. If the employers treat you well then give them the benefit of the doubt.

Anonymous said...

The bat miztvah list is composed generally of 25 percent people we want to invite and 75 percent people we feel like we have to invite.

My youngest daughter just had her bat mitvah and I invited my sister's nanny of 8 months. She take great care of my little nephew and the children have met her and she is just a great person. I don't rely on nannies like I did five years ago, but part of me did it because I want the nanny to feel like part of the family because that will only benefit my sister and her child.
(Longevity-trust).

I have to say if you had a part in a child's life, you should have been invited. Maybe they thought the 1 week wasn't vital? Maybe they overlooked you mistakenly and if it was brought to their attention, they would correct their error.

For someone to comprehend the sense that goes behind including and not including someone, inviting or not inviting, well they have to have class. Is it possible your employers just lack class?

Anonymous said...

Etiquette dictates you have to "cover your plate" plus a "suitable amount"? Um, no it doesn't. That's ridiculous, and anyone who thinks that way when planning an event is also ridiculous and very tacky.

Gifts are not "payment" for your meal. Where do people get these ideas?

Anonymous said...

Thank you, 6:59.
That was a bit tacky.

anonymous said...

A friend of mine did not invite her nanny to her daughter's b.m. She had been taking care of four children for eight yrs at the time and the kids truly love her and listen to her more than the mother. When the b.m. girl found out she insisted she be invited. Needless to say the nanny was very hurt. She was eventually invited, without her husband...and she had to show up with the dog as a surprise.
She would love to leave and go somewhere she is truly appreciated but she truly loves those kids. The mother has no idea how hard it is to find someone who only has the kids best interest at heart.
Needless to say, totally changed my opinion of my friend.
By the way, money definitely was not the reason, it was just being heartless as I've learned over the years.

Westchester nanny said...

Thanks everyone for your input. I am the OP and have spent a couple days upset over this issue. I would really like to think that they did not invite me because they did not want me to feel the pressure to buy a gift. On the other hand they know me, and also know that invited or not I will most certainly acknowledge it in some way because I love her! I'm not sure what the reason was, and will never know as I'm not going to ask. I just wanted to know if I was justified in feeling hurt by this or if I was just being overly emotional. After reading your responses and talking with friends I do feel it was wrong not to at least invite me to the service and Kuddush luncheon after. I would probably not have gone to the night party only because I think that is more for the kids than the adults. This really puts into perspective how they feel about me. As a person who loves kids and gets personally involved with the children in my care it's disheartening. As there is no way to change it I will just simply and gracefully mark the occasion with something small and a nice note for their daughter, because the day is really about her anyway.

aliana said...

i dont socialize with the family i work for, we have a professional relationship and that is all, it works better that way.

FNG said...

This belief of "covering your plate" is very popular in old school Italian families like mine. While I don't do this, I have cousins, aunts, and many friends who keep "gift logs" They can look up any gift given for any major event so they can reciprocate in kind. Example, Aunt Jenny gave her Friends daughter 100.00 dollars at her wedding. So when Aunt Jenny's child gets married, her friend must give AT least 100.00 in return. Don't laugh. I live it.
Although the practice is dying out among the younger generations, plenty of my friends and family still keep Christmas card Lists. They keep track of all who send a card and so they send a card the next year. If someone doesn't send a card, they aren't added to the list and they don't get one the following year, it's that simple.
Last year, when my daughter was invited to a neighbor's sweet 16, my grandmother pulled out her book and announced that 3 years ago, the same neighbor had given my son 50.00 for his 8th grade graduation and so I must give at least 50.00 I kid you not. They take this stuff very serious!

mpp said...

You are a very gracious person, OP.

I hope nice things happen for you, you certainly deserve it!

Jane Doe said...

Gracious is the word I was thinking too. You sound like an amazing person and I join MPP in wishing everything wonderful for you.

nyc mom said...

OP, I understand why your feelings are hurt. As an employer, though, this issue is one I (and my friends) struggle with often.

It is never clear to me whether to invite my nanny to my children's birthday parties on weekends. I love to have her there as a guest to share in the event because she is such an important and positive person in our life. However, I feel so uncertain as to whether I "should" invite her for several reasons. I don't want her to feel obligated to attend on her day off. I don't want her to feel obligated to buy a big gift (though she always buys something thoughtful anyway). I don't want there to be any confusion as to whether she is there to work (she would not be) and then any resultant confusion about pay.

I am lucky in that my current nanny has a daughter around my children's age so it is an easy answer and I always invite them. However, at our last party, I had to repeatedly tell her she was not allowed to work in any way! She kept trying to take care of the baby and I really did not want her to feel I had invited her to work. I truly enjoyed having her and her daughter as guests. However, I know she felt a bit uncomfortable around the other moms and I think she partly *wanted* to help out more because that is the relationship she is used to. With my last nanny, it was a bit more of a grey area because she did not have kids. I did always invite her, but she did not attend if the party was on a weekend.

OP I just wanted to share this to let you know that for many employers the issue of whether to invite our nannies is confusing for us because we want to do the right thing, want them there as guests, but have trouble knowing what our nanny would prefer and do not want to make her uncomfortable in any way.

Good luck.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 3:14, I am curious to see if anyone responds to your question. I wondered the same thing.

With the previous family that I worked for, the family claimed -- and for the most part, acted -- like I was part of the family. Yes, I was invited to birthday parties, and yes, they were included in social functions of mine, too. My husband and I went out to dinner with the mom and dad at least once a month, and I was often around the family, not just alone with the child. However, the mother had kept a journal for the child from the time she found out that she was pregnant. It talked about various happenings with the family and, as the child progressed from infancy into her toddler years, chronicled her accomplishments, likes/dislikes, and so on. I was with the family for quite some time (until the child entered preschool) and was only mentioned -- and in passing at that -- once. Also, the mother took things that I had told her (L really loves mandarin oranges this week, L's favorite thing to draw is such-and-such, and so on) AND stories about our day (trips to the zoo, favorite things that happened on walks together) and related them specifically as though they were moments she shared with the child.

I found this to be frustrating and hurtful, but I guess I chalked it up to the fact that Mommy, although a very accomplished woman and successful physician, was finding it hard to spend almost NO time with her child and hoped to look back on those times a little differently, perhaps, than they happened.

Anyone else have other ideas?

fg said...

I think that writing about a child's favorites and likes and dislikes is a tad different than rewriting history. I think it would have been better had she related the zoo and other stories accurately and included the person who accompanied her to the zoo within the recounting. Those are the child's memories and shouldn't be fictionalized in an effort to look like a better mother.

a said...

926, I think you are right. But when the memories don't jive with the children and they associate those fun times and milestones with someone else, they are going to feel c-r-a-z-y.

And making a child feel crazy by trying to change history is sick.

No mom is perfect. Mom should be able to celebrate in her memory book the day she hired the nanny and how happy the child was with the nanny. If you want to raise well rounded children, you are honest and you give credit where it goes. Not too mention, a child is going to appreciate a parent that went out of their way to hire a super nanny, even if the super nanny got to do a lot of things with the child that the working mom couldn't.

oy vey said...

To the OP: sure, it's hurtful to be excluded from a major event like that.
I've worked for many Jewish families and they've all included me in their children's Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, their newborn's bris, etc.
I would have preferred not to have been invited to the bris (I think it's barbaric) but I went and put a smile on my face and was respectful of their tradition. It was nice to be thought of and included in important family functions.
Each family is different. Try not to take it personally, and do not bring it up with the family (it's tacky to complain about being excluded...it's the decision they made and they had their reasons which were probably not intended to hurt your feelings at all).
Remember that you have people in your personal life (family and friends) who will invite you to plenty of events in the future.
Be happy with that.

Anonymous said...

Oy vey,
I have a question.
Your remark about a Bris made me very curious.
Do you think they way Jewish people "celebrate" it is barbaric, or do you still feel the same if it was done in a hospital in a sterile environment with a numbing medication so the child doesn't feel as much pain?

I don't like the idea that we have to circumsize, but I did so much research on the subject, and found out all the bad things that could happen if you don't: higher rate of infections, harder to keep clean (this is FACT, I dated a boy that no matter what, had a hard time with this!), and easier to contract STD's ....

So, is the whole thing barbaric to you, or just the Bris?

just anonymous said...

OP-I would be truly hurt as well. Maybe they thought you would feel uncomfortable, but they still should have invited you and let you decide if you would feel comfortable enough to come.
I was at my first nanny job for years and although I got a bonus each holiday, I never got one of their extravagant cards with pictures of the kids. I thought that was weird. And the only social events I was invited to for them was where I was needed to work. My families after that have been gracious in including me in their events, as I am with them if I ever throw a BBQ, or something.
Maybe it's a status thing for them. Or that if you go their child will favor you over them. Who knows, but it is odd.

Anonymous said...

9:26, well at least I am not the only one! When I saw that I was shocked and hurt. I haven't said anything to the mom but I think about everyday. Whenever she says something like "I am so glad we have you blah blah blah..." I want to scream "But not enough to be in the baby books HUH!?"

MetroNanny said...

I don't attend any family functions with the family I work for either. I've never been invited and I never cared or felt hurt. I am generous with the children at Christmas and Birthdays and the parents are generous to me in return but we just don't 'go there', if you get my meaning.

OP, try not to take it personal. Some people like to keep things professional and not cross those lines.

Anonymous said...

I think it's possible for employers to really, really like it that we (nannies) can be trusted to care for and help raise their kids, help run their homelife, making the parent's lives easier in so many ways...and resent us for it all at the same time. Of course, they can't admit their jealousy or resentment because then they'd come across as ungrateful and unapprecitive, which might make us want to stop doing all the things they and their children benefit from. so they might say all the "right" things, but their true feeling come out in other ways...no pictures of nanny in the baby book, no invite to child's milestone parties or events, no birthday card or valentine remembrance for nanny, etc.
Because of their own guilt and insecurity, sometimes just pure selfishness or elitism, employers love having us around, and hate us at the same time just as much.
I try hard not to take it personally, and eventhough I do get paid very, very well for my time, I still feel the sting of not being personally unacknowledged and genuinely appreciated for the care and convenience I provide.
My time with this family will soon end, and the funny thing is, I care about and will miss each of them as people, but not "the job" itself. Working for them has been a string of daily slights, and hurt feelings. I will breathe a sigh of relief when it's over.

Anonymous said...

NYC mom, you too sound like a great person to work for...kudos =)

Sue Doe-Nim said...

Two quick thoughts.

1. Just because you are close to the children doesn't mean the parents feel close to you.

2. Until my Nanny's death in 2005 we celebrated every Mothers Day with her and her children. We loved her that much. My mother loved her that much and the last time she cared for any of us was in 1983.

maggie said...

I won't make any bones about it, I require a lot from my nanny. She knows my issues, she knows I am high strung and have a tendency to mircomanage. On the flip side, there is nothing I wouldn't do for my nanny to make her life better, to make her more comofortable in her job and to make her feel like a part of my family. I made a comment previously about an employer who possibly mismanaged her employees, and that perhaps resulted in her nanny dragging her child out shopping. I do manage my employee because it is important to me that in my absence my child be cared for the way I want her to be cared for. My nanny knows the sort of behaviors I won't stand for and she respects that as an employee doing a job. But I appreciate that the job she does is so much more than a typical job, she gives of herself and I hope that I reward her in a way that makes her feel not just professionally fulfilled.

I just have a hard time imagining the sort of person who wouldn't invite their nanny to a Bat Mitzvah. I absolutely feel for the nanny's hurt feelings.

Anonymous said...

Hello

I work for the V.P. of a finance company. We sometimes talk about our families etc. But I never felt the need to be invited to his family parties, and vice versa. We know each others kids, etc because they come into the office. But its not on a personal level. I work hard at my job and enjoy the people I am in contact with. But thats it. When its time to go home at nite or weekends, I don't think of them.

Anonymous said...

Your post has no relevance to OP's situation. If your job for the VP was caring for his kids all day every day, and spending more time with them than he does, you'd probably feel different.

Anonymous said...

2:34, you clearly don't get it. We work in people's homes and spend the majority of the children's waking hours with them.

Bd said...

234 should be embarassed for popping up with her ridiculous story. My business is that too, a business. What we talk about and care about is tthe $ being generated. What I talk about and care about with our nanny is how our child is being raised, in large partnership with HER.

Anonymous said...

I would also be hurt. They sound like jerks. :(

Anonymous said...

I used to work as a personal assitant. When making guest lists for events, employers told me that they were leaving off the nanny or other household employees b/c they didn't want the nanny to feel uncomfortable, or feel obligated to buy an expensive dress or gift. And sometimes it was because the employer obnoxious, rude relatives they were embarassed by, and they didn't want the nanny to see their dirty laundry.

Also, they are not the ones spending time with you. You are very close to their daughter, but considering they may only see you a few minutes a day, perhaps they don't feel the same relationship with you.

And some people just want to keep their relationships with their employees strictly professional. I wouldn't take it personally. They may in fact, be insensitive jerks, but why not give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm working as a part time nanny now that I'm in grad school, and I definately keep a professional distance, b/c I've seen nanny friends get too involved in family drama

Janet E. said...

I don't think it's barbaric at all. It's a tradition I respect and have witnessed. I personally would much rather have a boy of mine go through it in the hospital. Foreskins are disgusting. Every memory I have of it makes me want to vomit. I don't care what the health issues are.... just get rid of it!!! Plus it looks so much better without it.

Oy Vey said...

Oy vey here.
I don't believe in circumcision at all. Period.
I think it's barbaric whether it's performed in someone's living room or in a hospital.
The "research" that people trot out that supposed to "prove" that it's terribly necessary is flawed at best.
Truth is, most Americans are simply grossed-out by uncircumcised boys or men, and they push their provincial hang-ups on innocent newborns.
There is plenty of research that shows it's not necessary.
During the first few weeks of life, intact baby boys are not supposed to have anything done to their foreskins at all.
The foreskin should not be retracted manually until the baby is 3 weeks-old.
Nature allows for this period of growth and everything is "self-cleaning" for the first few weeks.
The foreskin serves a purpose---that's why it's there.
It keeps that part of the body protected and keeps the skin healthy and soft. A few minutes of daily careful cleaning is necessary to maintain it, but shouldn't all grown men be keeping themselves immaculate down there anyway?
Boys can be taught to keep their privates clean and healthy.
Babies who are circumcised DO feel the pain (the agony, actually), uncircumcised men report increased sexual sensation and satisfaction and quite frankly, I think it should be the child's personal choice to make when he's older.
Making this decision for him is unfair and intrudes on his sense of control over his own body.
A circumcision can always be performed in adulthood if he decides it's what he'd prefer. But if you decide to cut off a part of his body while he's helpless and 8 days old, there's no turning back.
That being said, I understand and respect the religious basis for this practice.
I just wouldn't choose it for my own sons.

5:26 said...

Oy vey
While I respectfully disagree, thank you very much for your response. I was curious to know your side of the issue.

Anonymous said...

I would suggest that the OP put aside her feelings of being left off the guest list, and attend the religious ceremony. This is the part that's SUPPOSED to be the most important, not the party. The daughter will be happy to see you there, and will know that you supported her hard work to reach the milestone. Anyone can attend a service in a temple or synagogue, no invitation needed. Possibly when the parents see you, they'll be grateful and invite you to attend the party afterward. But the important part should be in showing this child how proud you are of her accomplishments.

LindaLou said...

5:26 ~ any one who really has *researched* circumcision knows that your stated *facts* are a load of bunk. and janet, your post is offensive beyond belief. someone actually has to have part of their penis chopped off to be attractive to you? wth cares? you're the one who is disgusting and i'm quite glad my intact son will never end up with someone so superficial and stupid. :::puke:::

btw, i am jewish. our first son had a bris because it was tradition and just the way things are. i so wished i had done my research beforehand. a man can be circumcised (with proper pain relief) any time he wants to be. an innocent baby has no choice in the matter and can't make his body whole again.

LindaLou said...

"The foreskin should not be retracted manually until the baby is 3 weeks-old."

oy vey, i appreciate your sentiments, but this simply isn't true. a child's foreskin should NEVER, ever be forcibly retracted. for more info, see this link:

http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/circumcision/protect-uncircson.html

or this one, if you're jewish:

http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/

Anonymous said...

Circumcision is the only way to go.

Signed,
non Jew

Anonymous said...

lindalou
Just why in the world did you have to come out full throttle? You are rude as hell, and have no right talking to Janet like that!
She is allowed her opinion,
SAME AS YOU!

Anonymous said...

There are pros and cons to circumsizing, and every Parent has to make the choice whether they want to do it.

However, we shouldn't be so obnoxious to someone who has a differing opinion.

Anonymous said...

Here is an interseting article. My Mother had cervical cancer and they asked her if my Father was circumsized.

Bottom Line:
Male circumcision is associated with reduced risk of genital HPV infection in men whether or not their female partners have cervical HPV or cervical cancer.
Circumcision is associated with reduced risk of cervical cancer in women with high-risk sexual partners.
In men with low-risk sexual behaviour and monogamous female partners, circumcision makes no difference to the risk of cervical cancer.

Here is the web site
Click here: Circumcision and cervical cancer

Personally I think that this proceedure is a decision that the parents must make for their sons. If the choose not to, it is a personal decision and they should not be called names. The same as a woman that would rather have a circumsized partner. We should not be so stuck on ourselves that this decision would make us "puke". Some women do not find the foreskin attractive and that is their business. I am sure that when all of the sons but one get circumsized that they will definately wonder why they were not. I also remember the names other boys called kids that were not circumsized. (digusting beasts)
but they do it. My kids were circumcised and none of them remember one second of it. My cousin who at 26 had to have to done because of infections and so on and he wasn't some unclean person or his wife would have left him, remembers every second of the healing process. One unhappy camper there LOL There are many sides good and bad for circumcision

mom said...

I can't believe people are actually fighting over such an incredibly personal decision...especially one that ties to religious beliefs.

marypoppin'pills said...

I think Circumcision is more about "preference", than religion. We are taught growing up that it is more "appealing" to women, so they do it. I mean, obviously - all you have to do is look at Janet's comment. I'm sure there are others that have the same opinion, she was just brave enough to post it, albeit colorfully.

I also thought the same thing ... what will the uncircumsized brother think about the brother who was? Will he think his is "ugly", will he be jealous? And none of this would be his fault, it's just something he's going to hear growing up. Kids talk ... and tease. I'm not saying one way or the other is best, I'm just trying to consider how the child would feel about it.

And if he does decide to get it done when he's older, it will be more painful, I'm sure. And he will remember it, too.

LindaLou said...

i'll talk to someone who says thoughtless and ugly things however i please, anonymous loser. it happens to be a heated topic for some and i think she acted like a pig about. i held back.

and mpp, i hurts a hell of a lot whether or not you're a newborn baby (they usually get no pain relief btw) or an adult. an adult can make an informed decision, at any rate, i'm through discussing it here, because of the level of ignorance that's become apparent.

enjoy your anonymous comments, wusses. @@.

LindaLou said...

and mpp, you needn't worry about any negative messages my children my be receiving about their genitals. that is what we're discussing now, right? my ACTUAL children. because this wasn't quite offensive enough BEFORE, time to make it completely personal.

FTR, we have told the circumcised son that we made a mistake in doing that to him and we are sorry. we did what we thought was the best thing at the time and we've since decided that it was wrong. and my children are sensitive and well brought up enough not to tease each other about their body parts. you ought to be worrying about the children of some others on here doing that, not mine.

fg said...

I do have some guilt about putting my boys through that as newborns. It is true that there is no pain medication given. I can only hope that I did the right thing. Actually, I've never thought to ask them about them their opinion about it(and I probably won't!) They had their sons circumsized, though.

CallMeNeutral said...

2:06

While I can agree that Linda Louise has fallen off her nut on this one, it's not as though Janet showed any respect. She could have stated in a dignified manner that she preferred the appearance of a circed member. Istead, she used words such "disgusting" "made me want to vomit". Aside form that, we all know that Janet (Bless her heart) has some severe issues with bodies in their natural state and appearance.

I have an intact boy, and I too bristled upon reading her post. I'm just saying.

Anonymous said...

333 The majority of women have the HPV virus. Do you honestly think that's all from the few intact men in the U.S.? - Man, they must get around! Those STD studies don't have much merit outside subsaharan Africa.

Oy Vey said...

lindalou:

Oy vey here.
I never said the foreskin should be FORCIBLY retracted.
Obviously, it needs to be retracted slightly and gently at some point so that the infant's genitals can be cleaned and kept healthy.

oy vey said...

And yes, everything I've stated re: keeping baby boys intact is backed up by medical evidence and condoned by several pediatricians I've met through my nanny jobs. I'm not just pulling this info out of thin air.
Every parent is entitled to make this decision for their children. I do not judge anyone who chooses it for their child based on religious tradition.
As I said before, I personally find it barbaric and would never allow it to happen to my own sons.
Okay, I think we've cleared that up.
Thanks for the feedback.

Anonymous said...

well it isn't a subject to argue about and make others feel bad over.

oy vey said...

^^^Who's arguing?
I've respectfully shared my opinion, that's all.
If someone decides to "feel bad" re: the things I've said, it has more to do with their conscience than anything I've said.

CallMeNeutral said...

The best advice ever for intact baby boys is Leave. It. Alone. You don't retract an infant. You clean the outside only. The boy will retract the foreskin on his own when hs is old enough and it's comfortable. Most of the problems intact boys have are from having some well meaning fool retract the foreskin from the glans before it's ready, causing rips and adhesions. Sorry, OyVey, but the foreskin doesn't retract at three weeks. That's absurd.

Anonymous said...

Jesus, oyvey. If youre retracting the foreskins on infant boys in your charge someone ought to make a nanny spotting about you. Thats just wrong. You could be damaging these children for life. Plenty of boys do not retract at all until puberty hits. You seriously need to do some better research.

cali mom said...

Anyone who thinks that ALL doctors perform circumcisions without anesthesia has not looked into this topic in at least 20 years. If yours didn't, you should have found one who did.

Anonymous said...

Pain relief is not routine, nor are the current options proven to be safe or effective. Adult men are put under general anethesia due to this. Most babies are just strapped down and cut while they scream bloody murder. Ask any maternity ward nurse. People think it is OK because the baby "won't remember" or "doesn't process pain like an older person." Sounds like garbage to me. At least the Jewish babies get some wine and get to be at home and surrounded by loved ones.

mpp said...

Lindalou
Please don't think I'm not sensitive to your argument.
I really appreciate your explaining what you said to your son, even though that was none of our business.

And to Cali
Yes, they do add a numbing cream to the penis now before they circumsize. I'm not sure how painless it makes it, but am told that the babies rarely cry.

Who's to really say though. This is a very emotional decision every Parent must make.

Anonymous said...

My ob-gyn told me that they used some kind of medicine to numb the penis.
Now I don't know if all Drs. do this, but if you plan on circumsizing, maybe you should ask first whether or not they do. I asked if it would hurt, and my Dr. said that "it's not something you want to see" but it isn't as bad as it used to be and the baby usually doesn't cry to much.

mom said...

When my first son was circumcised I was able to hear him cry from the other room. I felt bad when I realized it was my baby crying and why. But he stopped fairly quickly and seemed to be fine after that. Second son seemed to hardly notice at all. But they used some sort of ring instead of a scalpel to do the second one. Maybe it hurts less that way?

Anonymous said...

True mom. They have a ring now, not sure how it's used, but I think they still numb it.

No matter what, you should ALWAYS ask, so you know what's being done to your kid!

Anonymous said...

Uncircumsized men lack chutzpah and have no self esteem.

mom said...

10:24 What a rude and ignorant post.

Anonymous said...

I apologize. In my personal experience I have found that uncircumsized men lack chutzpah and have no self esteem.

t.r. said...

Circumcision is usually performed before your baby goes home from the hospital. Like all surgery, circumcision is painful. To relieve pain, anesthetic is given to numb the area. About one hour before the procedure, a numbing cream is placed on your baby's penis.

Right before the procedure, the doctor injects a local anesthetic at the base of the penis. The penis and foreskin are cleaned. A clamp is attached to the penis and the foreskin is removed by scalpel. The procedure takes just a few minutes. You can be with your baby during the operation if you choose.


As bad as that sounds, consider my cousin who fell in love with man who was not and he agreed to being circumcised before they wed. At the age of 33!

Anonymous said...

Well 11:01, all I can say is that if you have such a long history of unsatisfying experiences with uncircumcised men, perhaps it isn't all of them with the problem. Maybe you ought to look in the mirror, honey. Maybe your lack of class keeps them from wanting to go that extra mile for you...because, frankly, you sound like a real turnoff.

Anonymous said...

11:29
You go, baby!

Anonymous said...

I've had the pleasure of both. Circumsized and uncircumsized.
I could barely tell the difference.
So there!

Anonymous said...

t.r.
Thank you so much for your post.

I asked my son's Dr. if I could be there for his circumsicion, and he said no. I don't know why, if you say your allowed to be with your kid, his Dr. wouldn't let me. It was very hard.
But my son was only gone several minutes, and when they brought him back, he seemed content. So, even thought they told me they uesd medicine, I don't know if it hurt or not.
He didn't look like he'd been crying.

anonymous1 said...

uh, about that numbing cream- -
it's also used thirty minutes before laser hair removal treatments and the treatments still hurt like he*l

Anonymous said...

That numbing cream does nothing.

Anonymous said...

How do you know it's the same cream? There's probably a dozen kinds.
I had laser resurfacing on my face, to get rid of fine wrinkles, and it didn't hurt at all. It just felt "cold".
I doubt it's the same thing.

Anonymous said...

LOL, I bet that there's nothing they can use to keep laser hair removal from hurting!
OUCH!

anonymous1 said...

I only know of one kind of cream - - that's what I've always been given (in the strongest strength) but the wrinkle laser treatment differs from the hair removal. they also laser scars and they used that on some surgical scars I have and that didn't hurt at all, no cream even needed

Anonymous said...

11:48 Your Doc said no because being there is downright horrifying. The baby screams bloody murder. Those who believe otherwise are just deluding themselves so they can feel okay with it.

Anonymous said...

O.k., then I ask t.r. how she knows a mom can be there? Even thought I wasn't allowed, again - this may be something that is Drs. preference, I don't know.

And if I chose for my baby to be there, and he has to suffer (no matter what extent) - then I should be there comforting him, right?

Anonymous said...

How do you imagine you are going to be able to comfort a baby who is trapped in to a hard plastic chair while someone uses a scalpel on the most sensitive, nerve-rich portion of his body? I believe the parents should be forced to be there to see what they've chosen to inflict upon their sobs.

Anonymous said...

1:52
do you have a son?
i doubt it.
so shut up.

Lorenza said...

I had a friend who told me (she had four sons) that she always made sure to be there at the circumcision in order to comfort the baby right afterwards. When she told me this, I'd had my kids but it sure made sense to me.

Anonymous said...

How did do many people get from a party invite to penis particulars?

To get back on topic--OP get over yourself. No you are not that important to them. You work for them ONE DAY A WEEK. Maybe this is a private affair for family only. You are not family-find or make one for yourself, be important to them instead, stop being so needy with your employers.

oy vey said...

Slight and gentle foreskin retraction at 3 weeks was DOCTOR RECOMMENDED! I'm not an M.D. I did as I was instructed to do.
Enough already.

Anonymous said...

Then that doctor was an idiot. End of story. Just accept that you are dead wrong on this one and move on. You're not going to find any support from any medical site on care of the intact penis to back you up. I have to wonder if you even know what the word RETRACT means.

undercover regular said...

No need to beat up on Oy vey, I'm sure she was only doing what she was told. I see no reason why someone would do something like that without the (mistaken) advice of a Physician. It doesn't make sense. We find out all the time that something we once thought was o.k. to do medicinally or medically, is not alright now.

And to 11:13
That's what makes this site so interesting. Seeing it go off subject and learning something new.
We've all been there. Try it.

Anonymous said...

11:13
Why so harsh? This nanny only wanted to know if she was wrong for feeling the way that she did.
It was unnecessary to speak to her the way that you did.
You need to learn some compassion.

Anonymous said...

1:56 am is taking out her aggression on OY VEY just for the hell of it. 1:56 am, you need to take a chill-pill. You treat her like she yanked the baby's private parts off or something!

Clearly OY VEY was doing what the doctor told her to do, and if the guidelines for care of uncircumsized babies is any different, it wasn't her responsibility to know more than the doctor knew.
From what I've read of her posts, she seems to be very enlightened and concerned with the well-being of her charges.
I'm sure if she reads some of these posts, she will look into changing her approach to the handling of any uncircumsized babies she takes care of in the future.
I have an intact son who needed his foreskin not exactly "retracted" but opened just at the tip after his 4th month in order to clean away the "poopy" that was in the area when he had really messy diapers. This was endorsed by his doctor and necessary to avoid infection. It caused him no discomfort and did not retract or change the foreskin in any way.
I have a feeling this was more what OY VEY meant by "slight and gentle retraction", not real retraction at all.
My son retracted it himself when he was about 2&1/2 years-old, when he began potty-training. It was painless and really no big deal.

Give OY VEY break, she sounds like a really thoughtful nanny.

stop the chop said...

To the OP, good for you and remember not to take it personally when families you work for exclude you from family gatherings.
To all of you who are so gung-ho about circumcision,
let me ask you---would you allow someone to circumsize your baby girls?
Well, in many countries it's still done, and the excuses are much the same as they are for male- circumcision here in the States..."it's cleaner", "it prevents STD's", "it's tradition", "it's the way we've always done it", "it looks 'better' that way", "it's not really painful if it's done quickly" and on and on.
I'm pretty sure female- circumcision is illegal in this country (Lord, I hope it is). There's a reason for that---it's WRONG.
As far as I'm concerned, male- circumcision should be illegal too.
My husband is "intact" and I love him just the way he is...it's always clean and it's all natural...just as nature intended!

Anonymous said...

11:13 here--so harsh because OP is whining. Be a big girl, don't cry over lack of invite to family function. I certainly don't come here to learn new things from nannies. I come to hear you all complain and tell on each other and your employers~

Anonymous said...

Hey 8:13pm

At least you're aware of the fact that you're a slimy, voyeuristic turd!

Anonymous said...

Don't forget former nanny and now a mom too! Just here to have some fun with all of you! HAHA made you look.

Sprak said...

stop chop, I suggest you read up on female circumcision before comparing it to male circumcision. It is a very barbaric ritual performed in some areas of Africa and Egypt, for example, and its main purpose is to render a girl incapable of ever enjoying sex. It isn't cleaner, doesn't prevent STD's and certainly the butchered genitals do not look better, nor is it done for those reasons. Many girls die due to hemorrhaging from the procedure that is performed using filthy, even rusty, make-do instruments. Some never walk right again due to the damage. Sometimes when one of these victims gets married, her husband slices her open with a knife so he can have sex with her. That's due to the area having been stitched together, leaving only the smallest opening in order that her bodily functions continue.

He** no, it's not legal here and it shouldn't be legal anywhere and it isn't anything like a circumcision for a male who isn't crippled, maimed or deformed by the procedure nor is he deprived of a sex life forever.

Anonymous said...

^^^Actually, many men are "maimed" or "deformed" by circumcision and lead less-fulfilling sex lives because their foreskins were hacked off in infancy.
I remember watching a documentary on a boy who was raised as a girl because his doctor botched his circumcision so horribly that most of his genitals were destroyed.
Both male and female circumcision are a bad idea.
If circumcision is such a minimally painful procedure then why do they have to strap babies down to do it?
We need to leave our kids' privates alone. I'm so sick of the whole thing.

marypoppin'pills said...

I was wondering when someone would open the post up to female circumcision.
Some cultures still believe in doing this, and everything Sprak said is correct.
It is barbaric and the only intended purpose is so that the Wife does not enjoy sex.

These misinformed women have been brought up to believe that if they don't allow this tradition or ritual, they will die or be cursed.

cali mom said...

Stop the whack wack-if they sawed the whole penis off with a rusty fork, THEN it would be as barbaric as "female circumcision" which is actually an apologistic euphemism for what is usually called genital mutilation.

And why do they have to strap the babies down? Big duh. Because in order to do it safely, the subject must keep very still, and how many week old babies do YOU know who know how to hold still when they are awake? Have you ever actually seen a baby?

One guy in a documentary equals "many? Wow.

Viva revolucion said...

This discussion has me feeling very revolutionary.
Women-stand up for your rights!
Women-demand control over your bodies!
Women who are nannies-refuse to be taken advantage of in the workplace!
Women who are employers-refuse to take advantage of your nannies!
Women-support and love your man whether or not he's circumcised!
Women all over the world-unite!

There, I feel much better now.
:)

Anonymous said...

Cali mom has gone outer-limits. Everyone ignore her until she's back on her meds.

lmao said...

What person over the age of 12 says "big duh"?

cali mom said...

1:44, put down the bottle and step away slowly.

Anonymous said...

Some brave soul finally stood up to CaliMom! There is a God.

ROLF LMAO LOL LOL LOL

cali mom said...

'Finally"? Where have YOU been? ROLF LMAO LOL LOL LOL

Anonymous said...

It's not one brave soul. It's just you, backing yourself up.
You are useless, go to bed now.

Anonymous said...

what was the topic again?

Anonymous said...

Some forms of female circuscision are similar to male circumcision, actually. Only the clitoral hood (the equivalent of the male foreskin) is excised. And Calimom, I'm actually really shocked to see you condone circucision. You seem so AP and in to gentle parenting in other regards. I'm surprised that doesn't extend to amputating body parts.

Anonymous said...

7:29, Thank you for proving my point. She does not, in fact, know what retraction even means! I have every intention of stepping forward and correcting misinformation such as someone stating that the foreskin is only fused to the glans until the age of three weeks and after that it needs to be retracted during diaper changes. That is misinformation (as you know) and this nanny wants to argue about how right she is. It's pure donkey dung and very unsafe information to be passing around. And she still insists she knows what she's talking about. It's completely stupid.

Anonymous said...

4:12

Leave it alone.
We can all see the nanny "oy vey" knows what she's doing and didn't retract the foreskin, just cleaned the opening or something. So she overstated the word "retract", so what. Her point about circumsision was a good one and I'm glad she stood up about it.
I bet she's not going around brutalizing little boy babies. Stop trying to paint her like some monster and get over yourself.

Anonymous said...

okay okay okay 4:12

you made your point repeatedly

we get it

now shut up

Anonymous said...

Sounds like 7:29 was on OyVey's side and explained her use of the word retraction as not really being retraction. I don't think 7:29 "proved" your point at all, 4:12.

Anonymous said...

"donky dung"?

was that really necessary?

Anonymous said...

Uh, I guess it's better than saying shit, huh?

Anonymous said...

When did this become a flame-sight for bored teenagers?

Anonymous said...

I witnessed my 2 year old nephews circumcision (in a hospital we're not Jewish, she just wanted him to 'look like daddy') and it was by far the worst thing I have ever witnessed in my life! He screamed and cried so hard his entire little body turned red. When he stopped crying (the content look many mothers mention) crossed his face (kind of zoned out and peaceful) I (stupidly in retrospect because I'd rather not know, asked the nurse why he looked so zoned out) she actually admitted to me it was SHOCK! Yes, most babies go into shock afterwards. ): I will say he did recover quickly, but seeing him strapped down, attempting to squirm a way and screaming at the top of his lungs in pain was the worst thing I have ever heard, or seen.... and my sister actually got hysterical from watching him. When I have sons I'm not circumcising.

My husband is circumcised, but wishes he wasn't. My boyfriend before him was uncircumcised, and I really can't tell a difference. Once erect they look very similar, not to mention it's all the same in the *ahem* 'end'.

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute. A TWO year-old was circumcised without anesthesia? That's horrifying.
Last time I checked, two year-olds are physically mature enough to be put under general anesthesia for any operation. My younger brother was put under completely when he had ear-tubes put in his ears because of repeated ear-infections.
Infants who are circumcised are usually not subjected to anesthesia because it's considered risky at such a young age and only used in cases of infant open-heart surgery or other absolutely necessary medical procedures.
But from what I'm hearing, circumcision is very painful and traumatic as well so maybe there should be some sort of local anesthesia applied.
I can't imagine doing such a thing to any child of any age, actually.

Anonymous said...

I would think before a mother and father have any kind of surgery like this they would be asking what the doctor would be giving their son to block that pain?
I really find that whole thing hard to believe. People die from going into shock why would they do a circumcision on a 2 yr old and let him go into shock??? When our 2 yr old had a broken arm they gave her meds and then set it so she wouldn't feel it when they set it and go into shock. Not buying that story.

Anonymous said...

This sounds too fishy to me. You went along to watch a two year old be circumcised? In a hospital? And the hosital allowed an audience (according to you an hysterical audience) in the room to witness a surgical procedure? Which they performed without benefit of anesthesia? And when the child went into shock all of the medical personnel, apparently otherwise unconcerned, went about their business calmly and only happened to mention that the child was suffering from shock because one of the relatives happened to ask why he appeared to be so calm and happy. OK. Yeah.

Anonymous said...

Maybe this all happened in a different country or something because I can't imagine it could happen here.
Or could it?

most are uncut said...

So people circumcise their babies because they want them to look like "everyone else", huh?
Here's a statistic that might make you think twice about that:

82% of men in the world are INTACT.

Anonymous said...

Well let us not be too pc on this issue either. Are 82 percent really uncut? I shudder too think. I'm an Episcopalian and I like mine tucked. No exceptions.

cali mom said...

IF that story about the 2 year old being circumsized with no anesthesia is true, the doctor should be investigated at the very least. It sounds fishy to me, and nowadays, it's my understanding from conversations with the NICCU nurses when my son was having it done, that anesthesia (not general, local) is routine. And as for "amputating body parts"? If my ears would be 1000% easier to keep clean and uninfected by having my earlobes trimmed in my first week of life, I'd thank my parents for not forcing me to make the arrangements and pay the bill and schedule the recuperation time in my adult life. Because I have a lot more business to take care of now than when I was one week old. And I'd be surprised if most medical plans cover adult circumcision.

cali mom said...

Meant NICU. My keyboard gets sticky.

i'm just saying... said...

Calimom,
Any possibility someone at your house is using the computer for porn? That might explain your keyboard issues.

Anonymous said...

Ewwww! Just .... ewww!

Anonymous said...

You people can be so freakin' stupid. The child is two now. The child was circumcised as a newborn. And why are you all so shocked at the idea of it happening to a two year old, but it'd be perfectly acceptable if it was a newborn? Sick.